Andy Molinsky: [00:00:00] Okay. So, our guest today is Sarah Green Carmichael, who is an Executive Editor at Harvard Business Review, where she co-hosts the HBR IdeaCast in Women at Work Podcast. So, she's a podcast veteran. Prior to joining HBR, she worked as a sportswriter in Boston, and a researcher for a Pulitzer Prize winning columnist, Ellen Goodman. She also spent a year teaching high school students and learned a lot from that experience; although, she's not sure her students did. So, I'm really, really happy to have you with us here today, Sarah. Thanks for joining us.

Sarah Green Carmichael: [00:00:39] Thank you for having me.

Andy Molinsky: [00:00:41] So, let's talk about -- We're going to kind of go back and forth. And so, let's start though with what you do now. Tell us about your job, your role at Harvard Business Review, how long you've been there. Just tell us a bit about it. Then, we'll rewind to college and so on, but tell us about what you currently do.

Sarah Green Carmichael: [00:00:56] Yeah. So, my job now is, as you mentioned in your intro, hosting a couple of podcasts. I acquire and edit a number of articles for HBR, especially a lot of the articles you see on the website. I manage a few people as their boss, which still feels weird to be someone's boss, but it's a good kind of weird. Yeah.

Sarah Green Carmichael: [00:01:18] And I do a bunch of other random things. I edit books. I do projects. Like I have to figure out sometimes sort of what sound boring, sort of behind the scenes projects on the website, figuring out what the taxonomy of the website should be, which if you know what that means, you're maybe excited about that, and if you don't know, it sounds probably boring. So, it's kind of a hodgepodge of different things, and it's always changing. And that's been true as long as I've been in HBR, which is almost 12 years.

Andy Molinsky: [00:01:46] So, I know what HBR is, of course, but it's possible some listeners don't. So, can you just give a quick sense of what Harvard Business Review is. You've mentioned a podcast, you've mentioned a magazine, you mentioned books. Can you just say couple words about it?

Sarah Green Carmichael: [00:02:01] Yes, good point. So, Harvard Business Review, we like to think of ourselves as the world's premier management magazine and publication. So, we publish articles, and podcasts, and videos, and books, and all kinds of formats with the goal of trying to help people be better managers, to get more out of their careers, to be better bosses, to have more of an impact on the world.

Andy Molinsky: [00:02:27] Excellent. So, now, let's rewind. So, we have a sense of what you do now, and tell us a bit about where you went to college though. I actually know. I know the answer to that question because I think we went to college at the same place.

Sarah Green Carmichael: [00:02:39] Yes.

Andy Molinsky: [00:02:40] Where did you go to college? What did you major in? Tell us about your college experience. Let's start there.

Sarah Green Carmichael: [00:02:45] Yeah. So, I graduated from Brown University but, actually, started college at Connecticut College, and ended up transferring partway through. It was one of those things where the first choice I made just wasn't the right one for me. And so, while transferring was difficult because I didn't really want to go through the whole college admissions process a second time because the first time was bad enough, it was ultimately the right thing for me to do, and it was a good experience because it helped me realize that even if you make a mistake with a pretty consequential decision, like where to go to college, you can fix it later on. So, I think, ultimately, I'm glad I had that experience.

Sarah Green Carmichael: [00:03:23] I majored in English Literature. It was always obvious that was going to be my major. It's always what I had wanted to study. So, I didn't think too much about it, I just did it. And I worked on the college paper and did a bunch of other things. I always knew I wanted to go into journalism. So, from that perspective, I had a lot of clarity, but I didn't really know what kind of journalism I wanted to do.

Andy Molinsky: [00:03:47] How did you know you wanted to go into journalism? It's interesting. I think some -- I imagine some people really have a strong sense about what they want to do. Some don't. Was that something that you had in high school that sort of guided you to college? Was it a epiphany in college? Just say a bit about that.

Sarah Green Carmichael: [00:04:03] Yeah. I was just lucky that from a young age, I really enjoyed writing. And I think because I enjoyed it, I got good at it. And then, it just seems -- It sort of happened sort of naturally. It just was like, "Oh, yeah, I like this. So, I'm going to major in English, and I'm going to work on the college paper," and kind of one thing just sort of led to another.

Sarah Green Carmichael: [00:04:24] But, I think, it's not like I never questioned that path. I definitely questioned that path. And that's how I ended up working in a school for a little while. I worked in a bookstore for a little while. I kind of tried different things, but I always came back to journalism. And even though I've covered different topics - politics, or sports, or management - I still really enjoy what journalists do, and I really enjoy editing and writing. So, to me, I never wanted to really be a novelist. I always knew that nonfiction was what I wanted to do. And, yeah, I think I was really lucky to have that sense of direction early.

Andy Molinsky: [00:05:01] Let's sort of think about senior year, and this is actually really hitting home to me because I went to Brown as well, and I remember senior year. Every time I do these interviews, I'm thinking someone should interview me because I'd be curious what it was like for you. You knew you wanted to do -- I'm sorry, you wanted to major in English, you did. You knew you wanted to do journalism, but you had to find a job, right? You had to figure out something to do after college. Tell us about, sort of, that transition from college to the professional world. What was your first job? What were your first jobs? Tell us a bit about that story, and maybe then fill in the gaps between there and how you ended up at Harvard Business Review.

Sarah Green Carmichael: [00:05:41] Yeah. So, I'll tell you what I did, and I'm not sure this is it like I would tell this story as an example of what to do. It's just what I did. So, my senior year in college, I decided I was not going to ruin my senior year by worrying about finding a job. This was 2004. So, the economy was pretty good still. We had the tech bubble, sort of, burst a few years earlier, but it wasn't like graduating in '08 or something where there just were no jobs. So, I kind of just figured, "I'll find a job. Something will come up. I'm not going to worry about it.".

Andy Molinsky: [00:06:11] So, I didn't, which, in the end, it worked out. I'm not sure I would advise that approach. But, for me, it worked out. And I remember my roommate coming in and saying she'd seen a job posted on the Brown jobs board, which I tended to ignore because I had looked at a couple of times, didn't really see anything, and kind of stopped checking it. But she checked it, and she saw the posting for the job that would become my first job, which was to be a research assistant to, at that point, anonymous op ed columnists.

Sarah Green Carmichael: [00:06:43] So, being an op ed columnists was something that, at that point, was like my dream. I really wanted that to be my path. So, this would be like the perfect job for me. So, I wrote a cover letter, I sent in my resumé, and I waited to hear back. And I got the call back, and that's when I learned that the columnists would be Ellen Goodman who is someone I had always enjoyed reading and had sort of looked up to from afar. So, that was like a huge relief to me but, also, stressful because, now, I really wanted this job.

Sarah Green Carmichael: [00:07:14] So, I ended up like applying for the job, but then also deciding I was going to go on this cross-country road trip, which was like another long held dream. And I just didn't know when else I'd be able to do it. So, I remember completing the, sort of, rest of my application. I had to do a kind of test, which is common in journalism that you have to do kind of a bit of sample work, so that the person can see how you think and what you do. They may, usually, give you a little project to do to kind of help with the interview process. So, I remember completing that project on the road in Alabama, sort of, halfway through my cross-country drive.

Sarah Green Carmichael: [00:07:50] So, I did that. I got the job. I did it for two years. It was great. And then, I kind of had to figure out what else to do after that because when you're someone's research assistant, that's the job. There's not really advancement beyond that. So, that's when I really kind of had, I think, the questioning that a lot of people had done, a lot of my peers had done still in college because, then, it was like, "Now, what do I do?" And that's kind of when I had that kind of quarter-life crisis.

Andy Molinsky: [00:08:18] And so, what did you do?

Sarah Green Carmichael: [00:08:23] Yeah, fair enough, fair enough. So, what I did was I told Ellen that I wanted to leave and explore something else, and she was really supportive of that. It's really helpful to have your first boss be a great mentor. I recommend that if you can swing that one. And I did another cross-country road trip to try to sort out my feelings. And then, I came back and I worked part-time in a bookstore. I worked part-time in a school as a tutor, and teacher, and teacher's aide. And I started doing a lot of freelance writing.

Sarah Green Carmichael: [00:08:54] So, I wrote anything that anyone would pay me to write. And some of the assignments were really dumb. I wrote one article on where to meet men for a local newspaper. I wrote another short book on the War of 1812, which I actually really enjoyed working on. So, sort of anything. If you would pay me to write it, I would write it. And through that process of of freelancing and trying different things, I realized I'm not a very good teacher. Andy, I really tip my hat to people like you who can teach. I really struggled. So, I was kind of like, "Okay. That, maybe that's not the path for me." And I liked working in the bookstore tremendously, but you just can't make any money working an hourly job in retail. So, I knew I kind of had to go back to what I had wanted to do before, which was journalism.

Sarah Green Carmichael: [00:09:39] So, through my freelancing, I had met a woman whose sister worked at Harvard Business Publishing and who told me sort of through the old girls network, as we sometimes jokingly call it, that there was an opening. And I applied, and I got the job. And, at the time, to be totally honest, I felt like I was just selling out. I thought I'm doing this because I want a full-time job with healthcare benefits. And I hope to do it for three years maybe. And in the end, I've stayed there almost 12 years. And it was wonderful, and I loved it. So, you just never know.

Andy Molinsky: [00:10:18] And you're still there.

Sarah Green Carmichael: [00:10:19] I'm still there. I'm still there. Yes.

Andy Molinsky: [00:10:21] Okay, just to clarify.

Sarah Green Carmichael: [00:10:22] Yes.

Andy Molinsky: [00:10:23] Really interesting story. Really interesting story. So, let's jump in to the advice, not that you haven't been giving advice already, but into the more formal advice part of our discussion. And I think that we'll probably come back to some of what you talked about as we talk about these questions. So, the first one is is about misconceptions that young people have entering the workforce. And it's interesting because you, I guess, have a unique vantage point where you've had the experience yourself, but you also worked in an organization, Harvard Business Review, where people probably write about this and talk about this. So, what's your sense about misconceptions young people have?

Sarah Green Carmichael: [00:11:03] Yeah. I mean, I think that it's hard to have a misconception because there's -- I mean, I don't see young people, for example, having sort of misunderstandings. I just see that there is a lot -- It's just sort of an unknown world. So, there's less of a conception that's wrong and needs to be debunked than just the kind of blank canvas that needs to be filled in.

Sarah Green Carmichael: [00:11:23] So, when I started, for example, at Harvard Business Review, at that point, I still had not had a job that was sort of a big organization where there's gray cubicle walls, and you kind of sit down at a desk for eight hours at a time because my earlier jobs had been much more flexible. So, that was just something that I had to learn. I had to learn to sit still for eight hours and deal with, sort of, sometimes boredom, or sometimes urgency, other people's urgency. And that was hard. And it was kind of like, "This is it? It's like a Dilbert cartoon or something." But it really was like that, and it was a big adjustment for me.

Sarah Green Carmichael: [00:12:02] And having a commute where I sat in a car and drove to work was a big adjustment for me. I had to buy all new clothes because none of the clothes I had in college were suitable for the workplace. So, all of that stuff was just kind of a big adjustment. And then, there was the work itself, which was interesting, and challenging, and sometimes kind of boring, and there wasn't always enough of it to keep me busy. And that was actually the easy part. The work was the easy part. It was all the stuff around it that I think was just hard.

Andy Molinsky: [00:12:31] It's interesting. I keep thinking about the comment you made earlier about selling out initially. I wonder if there's something in there about a misconception where a lot of people do have or, at least, they try. They have this idea and this vision of choosing a job or an industry where it's just so aligned with their values. And it sounds like, at least, initially, Harvard Business Review wasn't, but that over time in unexpected ways, I'm sort of filling in the gaps here because you haven't even talked about it yet, but in unexpected ways, it ended up not feeling like selling out at all. And if that's right, tell us about that because that could be something interesting in terms of a misconception.

Sarah Green Carmichael: [00:13:14] That's very insightful. Yes, that's very insightful. So, I think my initial conception of Harvard Business Review was like it's this stodgy place that was very kind of publishing boring stuff. I hadn't really read any of it when I decided to apply for that job. And very soon after working there, I started to realize like, "Oh." For example, we publish a lot of stuff about kind of gender in the workplace, and how women can get ahead, how organizations can become more diverse." That was an issue that I care deeply about, and something that I had been researching and writing about in a freelance way for a long time.

Sarah Green Carmichael: [00:13:54] So, that was just an example of something where I thought, "Oh okay, this means a lot to me." And then, I started to find kind of meaning in our mission. I realized people spend a lot of time at work, and the mission of HBR is, in large part, helping that time be more pleasant and productive and making offices a better place to work. So, as I kind of got to see all the ways that our work had impact on real people, it started to really mean a lot to me. Yeah.

Andy Molinsky: [00:14:25] That's interesting. Yeah. So, let's now -- I said we're going to sort of fast forward and rewind. I want to rewind again to college. I'm curious, and I think students also are wondering about this too, were there any skills or knowledge from college that ended up being particularly useful for your career? It could be sort of things you didn't anticipate would be but are, things that you did anticipate. Can you draw the link?

Sarah Green Carmichael: [00:14:55] Yeah. I mean, in some sense, all the writing skill and editing skill that I had practiced and learned over both high school and college was immediately useful because that's what I was doing. And especially my first job as a research assistant, I was using research skills that I had honed in college. So, that was kind of what I learned from like that in-class learning that I, then, could apply to my work.

Sarah Green Carmichael: [00:15:19] But I think a lot of the stuff I learned in college that was most helpful was kind of stuff about showing initiative and not taking no for an answer. So, one of the things I really wanted to do in college, which I ended up doing was writing an honors thesis. And at Brown, you had to take a special class to kind of prepare for writing your honors thesis, and hadn't done that because I had transferred in.

Sarah Green Carmichael: [00:15:42] So, what I ended up doing was just basically begging the dean to let me do it. And it worked. And I think, at that point, up to that point in life, I had kind of been a rule follower. I was someone who never wanted to do anything against the rules in case I was caught and got in trouble. And, for me, that experience of advocating for myself successfully taught me that, "Oh, you can do this. You should do this." And I think in the workplace, that was really helpful just in terms of advocating for promotions that I wanted or advocating for projects I wanted to be on.

Andy Molinsky: [00:16:16] It's very interesting. Yeah. So, sometimes, it's the, sort of, unexpected elements that end up being really important. Really, really interesting so. So, let's actually hear from a student. So, today's student question, I am going to play for you right now. Let's listen to it, see what they have to say, and see what you have to say.

Logan: [00:16:37] Hi. My name is Logan, and I study Management. I'm from Boston. I was wondering how your academics transferred into leadership skills in the workplace?

Sarah Green Carmichael: [00:16:43] That's a great question. I think that -- So, one of the things that is really helpful as a leader is putting yourself in someone else's shoes. I think the times I've managed to be most effective, it's when I can understand where the other person is coming from and what matters to them, and how the situation seems from their point of view. And I think as an English major, that was a skill I had worked on extensively because you're trying to imagine the inner lives of these fictional characters, and you're trying to sort of analyze the text on multiple levels.

Sarah Green Carmichael: [00:17:20] So, for me, I think -- And there have been academic studies that show that reading fiction improves your empathy as a human being. So, for me, I think going through that experience of analyzing and empathizing with fictional characters actually helped me, then, relate to real people as a leader, I hope.

Andy Molinsky: [00:17:41] That's really interesting. I've never heard that before actually. It's funny. As an English major, did you -- So, I've heard from other people, I heard an interesting answer to a question, sort of, like this. And maybe, it's not relevant for English majors but it was maybe more creative writing that doing creative writing in college force you to be in a room, and having receive feedback from a lot of people, and give feedback. And that that sort of intensive experience of doing that ended up being critical for sort of management leadership skills afterwards. Different from what you're talking about, but it's so interesting that some of these, sort of, unexpected elements of your educational experience can end up down the road helping you out.

Sarah Green Carmichael: [00:18:22] Yes, I think that is 100% true. And a similar thing for me was learning to talk in class. I mean, being a student where you raise your hand, and throw your ideas out there, and engage, that is something that is really helpful in the workplace as well. Like if you're in a meeting, and you don't say anything in the meeting, it's kind of a wasted opportunity for you to interact with your colleagues. And I think, especially for a lot of young people, it can be intimidating to speak up in a meeting, especially if you're the youngest one in the room. And I think in a class setting, even just something as simple as talking in class really helped me develop the confidence I needed to succeed at work.

Andy Molinsky: [00:18:59] Yeah, very interesting, me too. Very, very interesting. So, we're, sort of, getting towards the end of our conversation. And, now, we have what we call our quickfire round. And so, it's just a series of questions. And if you could just give us a quick answer. Though I have to admit that some of these questions invite sometimes a longer answer, which is OK. The first one is pretty simple, but I think people are always interested. What gets you motivated at work?

Sarah Green Carmichael: [00:19:27] Working with wonderful, wonderful people. So, I think that no matter what you're working on, if the people you're working with are good, funny, kind, decent, smart people, you will have fun doing it.

Andy Molinsky: [00:19:43] How about a piece of advice that someone gave you earlier in your career that you didn't take, but you wish you did?

Sarah Green Carmichael: [00:19:49] That's a tough one. I tend to be an advice-taker. I think that-

Andy Molinsky: [00:19:56] You can pass.

Sarah Green Carmichael: [00:19:58] Well, I think, that I do think earlier in my career, I was a little hesitant sometimes to negotiate, and you always read, especially like women don't negotiate. I'm not sure that that is true. The latest studies I've seen show that women do ask for raises at the same rate as men do, especially younger women, but I didn't. So, I think some of the advice I got was, "You should negotiate," and I just couldn't bring myself to do it. It felt too awkward. So, I wish I had.

Andy Molinsky: [00:20:24] Yeah. Sometimes, people tell you to do things, but it's, oftentimes, I mean, easier said than done. It's a tough thing to negotiate, It's a tough thing to speak up in meetings and so on. Sometimes, it takes more than just the advice. You need sort of the knowhow, and courage, and so on. Third question, what makes for a good mentor in your mind? And I guess we can elaborate that by asking, do you have a mentor? Have you been a mentor? Tell us about mentoring in your sort of professional experience.

Sarah Green Carmichael: [00:20:57] Yeah. I've been lucky to have some really great mentors. And, I think, some of the great mentors, if they are outside your organization, well, at the very least, give you advice and believe in you, and take you to cool events, and introduce you to interesting people, and help build your network. If they do work with you, they can give you better assignments. They can give you stretch assignments. They can give you the courage to fail. They can give you useful advice.

Sarah Green Carmichael: [00:21:23] One piece of advice I got from a mentor when I was just starting out on my first project, managing a big project, that was helpful was it's not your job to be liked. It's your job to get this project done. And just hearing that it wasn't my job to be the super likable, young person which is sort of the role I had been in was really helpful to me. So, sometimes a mentor can just give you one piece of concise advice that sticks with you.

Sarah Green Carmichael: [00:21:48] And I do try to mentor other people and to do those same things for them now that I'm at a higher level in the organization. And I have to say, it's incredibly rewarding to see that you can help someone build their confidence to see that if you believe in someone who is smart and deserving that it can make a difference in their lives.

Andy Molinsky: [00:22:07] And I would agree. And so, I think a question that I would have if I were a young person is, how do I find a mentor? Sometimes, we're assigned a mentor. But, often, it's sort of like a bit forced. It could actually end up being really successful. But aside from sort of pure assignment, how do I even think about finding someone who could be my mentor?

Sarah Green Carmichael: [00:22:30] I think it's tough because you don't really want to go around being like, "Hello. Will you mentor me?" I think the way that I've seen work best is just show chutzpah, show moxie, go above and beyond, do your best work, be pleasant to be around, don't say no to any assignments really. If you are handed an assignment that you really think you can't do, find a way to do it. Ask for advice on how to do it but don't turn it down. And to just be that kind of young go-getter that people like being around, and people will mentor you.

Sarah Green Carmichael: [00:23:02] I think it's tougher if you are a minority in your organization. If you don't look like the dominant group, it's really hard to find a mentor at your office. But in that case, I think, finding mentors through networks outside of your office is a good sort of backup option if there's no one in your workplace that seems to be a good fit for you.

Andy Molinsky: [00:23:22] That's great advice. And the last question that we have, and this has been a really useful conversation, really great. The last question I have is one of my favorites actually because every time I ask it, I always sort of think about, "How would I answer that?" Here's my question, if you could sort of really rewind and go back in time, and you could sort of talk to that 20-year-old college version of you taking the English literature classes, empathizing with those characters in the novels, wondering about your future career in journalism, what advice would you have for -- given your current sort of level, and status, and level of wisdom, and so on, what advice would you have for that younger version of you?

Sarah Green Carmichael: [00:24:06] Oh man. I would probably say everything will be all right. Don't worry about it there.

Andy Molinsky: [00:24:15] That's fair.

Sarah Green Carmichael: [00:24:15] Yeah. I mean, I think, it's normal to worry about your future. I worry about my future now. It's like I don't worry about what I've already done, but, I think, gosh, I'm going to work 30 more years. What would that look like? So, I think we all have that feeling. But I think knowing what I know now, I would to say, yeah, just put in your time, and work hard, and everything will work out. And take more risks because you don't -- it's a cliche, but it's true that you don't regret the things that you did. You regret the things you didn't do.

Andy Molinsky: [00:24:45] Well, we're at the end of our chat. And I wanted to thank you so much for being our guest. Can you tell listeners if they want to find out more about the work you do, I know you do multiple things, how they can find you?

Sarah Green Carmichael: [00:24:59] Yeah. Well, I hope that people will subscribe to the Women at Work Podcast that I co-host and, of course, the HBR IdeaCast. We also have another show that I think people might be interested in, which is called Dear HBR, which is an advice show. And it's co-hosted by a couple lovely colleagues of mine. And, of course, if anyone wants to find me in the real world, I met at @skgreen on Twitter.

Andy Molinsky: [00:25:24] Awesome. All right. Thanks so much.

Sarah Green Carmichael: [00:25:26] Thank you so much, Andy. This has been really fun.