Andy Molinsky: [00:00:00] Ryder Carroll is the author of the new book, The Bullet Journal Method, and is the creator of the Bullet Journal. And I am very happy to have him here with us on today's podcast. So, thanks, Ryder, for joining us.

Ryder Carroll: [00:00:13] Thanks for having me on.

Andy Molinsky: [00:00:14] Let's set the stage here by talking about what you do now. I know you're a book author, I know you've written this awesome book, and I know you've created the Bullet Journal. And I'd love to hear about that but tell us about your job. And we're going to rewind a bit about sort of earlier in your career, but what do you do now?

Ryder Carroll: [00:00:33] Well, actually, since April of last year, I have been doing Bullet Journal full time, but it took a long time to get there.

Andy Molinsky: [00:00:44] And before that?

Ryder Carroll: [00:00:44] Before that, I was a digital product designer. So, I designed interfaces for software, ranging from watches, to video games, to insurance apps that had a screen. And chances are that it probably worked on something for that platform.

Andy Molinsky: [00:01:01] Tell us where you went to college, what you majored in. Just tell us about your college experience.

Ryder Carroll: [00:01:09] I went to Skidmore College in Saratoga Springs where I double majored in Creative Writing and Graphic Design.

Andy Molinsky: [00:01:18] I guess, if you can rewind, and I know it's always hard to rewind in that way in your mind, but if you could step back into what it was like for you, I guess, senior year, maybe towards the end of senior year thinking of, "Gosh, what am I going to do next with this creative writing and graphic design?" So, did you have a sense of what was going to come next? Just, sort of, paint the picture for us.

Ryder Carroll: [00:01:41] Sure. Well, it's interesting because when I went to college, I had a pretty strong idea of what I wanted to do, which was I wanted to direct music videos. Back then, that was a thing. But throughout the course of my college career, that stopped being a thing in a very big way, and nobody would invest in that anymore. So, I had that kind of change course.

Ryder Carroll: [00:02:07] And, eventually, one thing that really started drawing my attention was doing credit designs. So, the little micro movies that go before and after film, which started becoming more and more popular at the time. They had been popular earlier on, and you can see them in like some of the Hitchcock movies, the graphics, anyway.

Ryder Carroll: [00:02:28] So, I found a company who was really pioneering some of these really beautiful, high-end, super interesting designs for credits and scenes. There were these movies that almost stood on their own before this. And for some reason, I really liked how focused and how different they were, but they really set the tone for what was to come. And a lot of times, those tiny movies were better than the real thing.

Ryder Carroll: [00:02:56] I found there was a specific individual who was really pioneering this, and he started a company in New York. And I wrote to them, and I pulled every string that I could, and I got to go visit this company, and they offered me an internship. But the way that it worked was that I went down there, I talked to them like, "Yes, absolutely. Once you get down here, just let us know when you can start. That internship will just be open."

Ryder Carroll: [00:03:24] And at the time, I was a senior. And I think that when you're a senior, you have a lot of stories in your head about how much you've accomplished because you have four years of doing your best. And at the time, things were just really working out well for me. And I just assumed, and I took them at their word that they would just hold this spot open for me. So, I told them roughly around the time that I would be in New York City. So, that was my plan. I spent the summer up in Saratoga Springs working there, and then I moved down to New York.

Ryder Carroll: [00:04:00] Now, this was a year after 9/11, and I moved everything I had down to the city, and they got this terrible apartment, but I could afford it. And then, I called them and said, "Okay. When do I begin?" And they told me, it's like, "Oh, I'm sorry. Has nobody reached out to you yet?" and here it comes. But because of 9/11, how the market was at the time, it downsized the company, and my internship was gone, and nobody bothered to tell me. So, I'd moved everything to a location, and, yeah, there was no work. So, I spent the next, let's say, six or seven months looking for a job in one of the bleakest job markets in recent history. So, that was my introduction to the professional workforce space, if you will.

Andy Molinsky: [00:04:46] Did that industry, sort of -- Was that -- Were you looking in that exact industry of those many short credit films, or were you looking at it more partly?

Ryder Carroll: [00:04:55] Yeah. I mean, I was really interested in this idea of mixed media. Like, for me, that was really interesting because I really loved photography, and making films, and writing, and art, in general. It's really just the shameless creative in that sense. I wanted to figure out a way to combine all these different things. That's really what I enjoyed doing. It's what I love to do.

Ryder Carroll: [00:05:21] And the problem was that I realized very quickly that just because I love doing something and I believed in it, it doesn't mean that I could get paid for it. And that was a really hard realization to make at that age because in college, a lot of time towards the end, you get to be working on what you want to be working on. You've gotten rid of all your pre-reqs, and you can finally study this stuff that interests you. And then, all of a sudden, the real world completely collides with your reality.

Ryder Carroll: [00:05:53] And I spent, basically, that year trying to figure out how could I do what I wanted to do, and I realized that that and paying rent wasn't going to happen for me. And once I got over that hurdle, I just basically started looking for any job that I could. And that's how I ended up working for a publishing company, basically, laying out order forms.

Ryder Carroll: [00:06:17] And it was really, really hard. I had left believing that I could work for a company and that were just couldn't wait to hire me because, at the time, I was very naive, and I was like, "I'm very skilled. I'm very good at what I do." But (A), that's not necessarily the case in the workforce. You have other people, especially in New York, vying for the same positions that are way more talented or way more experienced.

Ryder Carroll: [00:06:48] So, the first thing is to cultivate a sense of humility a little bit. Those people, you begin wherever you can, I feel like because as soon as you hit the workforce, and as soon as you become independent, the narrative changes very quickly. You realize that what it takes to create a sustainable independent life, and that doesn't always align with the story that we've either been led to believe or the story that we want to have happen.

Ryder Carroll: [00:07:24] Now, that being said, what was interesting for me is that I had this terrible job, which hardly paid the bills, but, at least, I didn't have to worry about that anymore. When you're worried about how you're going to feed yourself, every other thing starts to become less important. So, I feel like that was the first box I had the check in my career. I know where I'm staying, I have a roof over my head, I can eat somewhat. And then, once that's kind of squared away, it frees up your mind to kind of re-engage with like what are you going to do.

Ryder Carroll: [00:08:02] And I feel like a lot of people think, or, at least, I did when I leave college, I'm going to be in the career that I want to be in, and then it's just going to be a matter of climbing the ranks. The thing was that when I left also, the web was starting to become a lot more commonplace, and that was something that just didn't exist when I was in college, or it was very specific to tech companies that had websites and everything. But all of a sudden, there'll be smaller businesses that have websites.

Ryder Carroll: [00:08:37] And, for me, creatives, and artists, and musicians started having their own websites and everything. I started getting really interested in that. And now that I had a job where I didn't have to worry about income, I started studying about it. I studied more and more about websites and things like that. And, eventually, I decided to educate myself about the creation of this and learning these new technologies, and all these things. It's interesting. I studied all these things. And then, the thing that I ended up being interested in revealed itself after I went to college, which is just the way it goes with technology.

Ryder Carroll: [00:09:18] So, that's when things started to change. I found the thing afterwards, but I was only able to find what I was interested in or how I could actually make a living because I was forced to understand what living without a sense of purpose is like. It became such -- It's so much more poignant and valuable for me to actually take the responsibility and figure out how I could go about pursuing this new career. And I used my terrible job to finance that.

Andy Molinsky: [00:09:50] And did you -- So, actually, can you -- It's really interesting. And can you bring us -- I mean, you don't have to tell the entire story of from terrible job to Bullet Journal in this interview, but did you hop from job to job, and in the meantime sort of worked on this kind of stuff on the side? Just tell us a bit about how you got from there, what you just described, to now.

Ryder Carroll: [00:10:18] Yeah. I mean, it's all a path of really hard-won lessons, I guess. So, at first, I had this publishing job where that was literally to pay the bills and whatever else that I could manage from my salary I used in actually taking night classes to learn how to code and design for an interactive space, which is very different. As a graphic designer, you have this static environment. That is for software and websites, the whole point is that you interact with them, how do you tell a story to people? And I got really fascinated by that. So, I learned how to do this stuff.

Ryder Carroll: [00:10:57] And then, I started taking on clients on the side. So, I still had my full-time job. I worked at that place for, I think, 14 or 16 months. Just a very traumatic experience in many ways that I don't think we have time to get into but, essentially, because it was so bad, it really encouraged me to learn as much as I could about this, so I could become valuable, which is something that I wasn't. And that was something that was interesting to me.

Ryder Carroll: [00:11:27] A lot of times, you're instructed that you're just valuable because of who you are. But in the workspace, when people are paying you money, you aren't as valuable as you may think. So, it's on you to figure out how to become more valuable to the company, not them to you. And that's something that seems obvious now but back then wasn't. So, I figured out ways that I could do very specific things. I could design websites, I could do it for this price, I could do it. I found my niches, and I became more and more valuable.

Ryder Carroll: [00:12:04] So, I started having the side business. I basically had a little web design shop, and I would start designing websites for small companies, and bands and things like that until, at some point, I was able to support myself doing that. That took a while. It took a while to figure out. And then, I transitioned from that job to, at least, being able to focus on something that I really enjoy doing.

Ryder Carroll: [00:12:30] Now, to be clear, that didn't always pay the bills as well. So, I'd also be cater wagering on the side as well just to make ends meet but, at least, I spent the majority of my time pursuing something that added value to my life, and that I enjoy doing, and like the cater wagering is the tax that I paid on that. But over time, my skills got better and better, and I got more valuable, and then eventually I would land bigger jobs.

Ryder Carroll: [00:12:58] So, I went from having this tiny web design shop to actually becoming a contractor working for very large companies, fashion industry, and the arts and creative industries, helping people with web things like building interactive destinations, or figuring out checkout flows.

Ryder Carroll: [00:13:17] Over time, for me, the actual user interface component of design start become more and more interesting. They're just these puzzles. There are systems that you had to figure out how to instruct somebody to be able to easily navigate or accomplish their goal. So, I focused on that, and I really enjoy that, and I got more, more experience and more, more contacts as I did that. So, I spent a large part of my career moving as a contractor between these different companies and agencies.

Ryder Carroll: [00:13:49] Now, I was a permalancer a lot. So, that means that I was basically freelancing for a company for a year or more, or, sometimes, it'd just be a couple months if it wasn't a good match. And then, eventually, I ended up at a company that that really value my contribution to the company, and they ended up offering me a full-time position, which is when I started getting teams of people working with me, essentially doing these things. And then, I started having a more leadership experience.

Ryder Carroll: [00:14:24] And then, after I kind of got tired of just designing websites, I started moving more into the startup space because I was really interested in actually building products from the ground up, things that had solved challenges. I mean, not always altruistically but, sometimes, just to make life a little bit easier. For me, that's kind of what mattered.

Ryder Carroll: [00:14:44] So, I started learning a lot about the startup world. I created my own startup with a partner. This is not Bullet Journal. This is much less. And I just really love that space of actually building things from scratch. And then, I started working for digital agencies that would do that. I'd be hired to essentially, "This is our new product. We need the whole software interface, all these things," which led me to the last job that I had where I was, I guess, the art director, for lack of a better, of a digital design agency's New York office where I had a team of people doing exactly that, just building products, building products.

Ryder Carroll: [00:15:27] Now, the thing was just before that, I had been doing a couple of like mid-sized stints, essentially contracts. It would be like five months, eight months, this kind of things. And one of them had been very challenging. I didn't see eye to eye with the people who were building this. So, I basically kind of just became a cog in the wheel, which is fine. I signed the contract. I honored my commitment essentially, but it left me really drained.

Ryder Carroll: [00:15:57] So, I had the span of time where I could do whatever I wanted. And I just felt so creatively drained, but I'm like, "Why don't I make something that's just my own, something that adds value to this community that I had learned so much from over the years, especially with web design, and coding, and that genre that I love?"

Ryder Carroll: [00:16:26] A lot of it was being developed in real time. Sure, there's a design culture that it came from, there is a heritage, but it's kind of the Wild West. And there are these people who are way better designers or way better coders that really shared their learnings online that I've benefited from greatly, but I'm not the best designer in the world, certainly not the best developer. So, what can I share that would add some value? I would like to have this little contained project that I can just put online for no other purpose than just as a thank you. And I want it to be something uniquely my own.

Ryder Carroll: [00:17:04] And then, it occurred to me that I take notes in a very unique way. And I was sitting there thinking of all the things that I could build, and I was like, "Why don't I share how I use my notebook system because in every digital agency I've worked at, there are a lot of black notebooks on desks?" Whether these people are developers, or designers, or accountants, or product managers, they're just there even in this digital age.

Ryder Carroll: [00:17:32] So, I figured out how to explain how I use this analog platform for the digital space and in the digital space, how to create a website that instructed how to do this analog practice. And that was an interesting thing, kind of how do you explain something that's very tangible in an intangible medium?

Ryder Carroll: [00:17:57] So, that's how Bullet Journal came to be. I created this website tutorial, put it online, and went onto my next project. And then, it started to grow. And as my full-time career eventually got to a place where I had to make a choice. Do I continue to pursue this very gratifying and successful career, or do I move over to the passion project? And, luckily, either choice would have been able to support me at that point.

Andy Molinsky: [00:18:28] Really interesting story. And then, if you go back to college. Now, I know we're kind of fast forwarding and rewinding. So, what, if anything, about college do you think ended up being useful for your career? You talked a little bit about what wasn't or, at least, the certain mindsets that weren't as conducive. Was there anything that, in retrospect, actually was helpful?

Ryder Carroll: [00:18:55] Well, I mean, my graphic design background definitely helped. It's like I used a lot of the software years into into my career. Still do. Like Photoshop was absolutely essential. And I didn't know it when I went to college. And my school was very multidisciplinary, so I was able to be exposed to different ideas that I wouldn't have before. And that was helpful.

Ryder Carroll: [00:19:21] I mean, ironically, I feel that I got more social knowledge. I gained more social knowledge in college than really hard factual knowledge because the technology in the space just didn't exist while I was in college. The careers that I ended up having just were nonexistent. So, that was always interesting.

Ryder Carroll: [00:19:44] But, at the same time, for example, learning about narrative arts, learning about how people think, introduction to Psychology, and how people digest information, and what they remember, and what they don't, like these are all concepts that I hadn't really been exposed to before. Over longtime, it might not be a one-to-one relationship, but, definitely, the seeds were there.

Ryder Carroll: [00:20:13] But it's also interesting because it's like the first time where there are people who are concentrated in a space based on their interest. So, it was the first time in my life I ever sat in a room full of writers. I think that was really interesting, "How do you work with that? How do you get feedback? How do you give feedback?" which ends up being like a very large part of my career.

Ryder Carroll: [00:20:39] Telling people something that they don't want to hear is a skill, and at no point can it be too early to start acquiring that skill and knowing how to be able to have a productive conversation and really challenging circumstances, especially if you start going into leadership positions of any kind because that will be your job. How do you help people align with what it is that the company is trying to do, or what the client needs, or those kinds of things?

Ryder Carroll: [00:21:16] And I found that the people who struggled the most had never experienced that before. And as like an art major, you're constantly being told what you could improve on, but like how, or you're helping each other. So, social dynamics are something that really can't be underestimated.

Andy Molinsky: [00:21:35] That's really interesting actually. I never thought of that before. As you were talking, I just rewind to my own college experience, and I'm older than you. So, it's even longer. I was just remembering that I took a creative writing class in college. I don't think I thought of that for however many years it's been since I've been in college.

Andy Molinsky: [00:21:56] And I actually remember being in that room. And in that that moment where, sort of, your works on display, and then you're sort of given feedback. And anything you create is always, if you care about it, you identify with it, and you're vulnerable to that feedback. But then, you have to sort of flip the switch and do the same thing to other people. And it's interesting because in a lot of majors, you don't get that experience necessarily. So, I appreciate that comment. That's really interesting.

Andy Molinsky: [00:22:28] I want to move to a student question. So, we've got a question today. And it's very, very relevant to our discussion. So, it's a student named Jennifer. She's interested in your advice about becoming an entrepreneur on a limited budget. So, very, very our apropos. So, let's hear her question.

Jennifer: [00:22:48] Hi. My name is Jennifer, and I'm a college student double majoring in Business and East Asian Studies with a minor in Economy. I'm from Wilmington, Massachusetts. So, I'm a student interested in becoming an entrepreneur. What advice would you give in terms of starting a business on very limited capital?

Andy Molinsky: [00:23:10] Essentially, that's her question. And I think nowadays, with what we've been talking about, about the internet, and sort a lot of these tools being so readily available, and so on, I think it empowers a lot of people, students to start businesses. What's your advice about starting a starting a business, being an entrepreneur in a limited budget? It sounds like you've lived it.

Ryder Carroll: [00:23:32] Yeah. Well, I would say that the first thing is you have to have a base income. Being an entrepreneur is incredibly, incredibly challenging, especially if you're an inexperienced entrepreneur. Just because you want to make something doesn't necessarily make you an entrepreneur. In the building of a thing requires much more than people may imagine. And that becomes significantly harder when you're constantly worrying about, how are you going to pay the next check?

Ryder Carroll: [00:24:07] There are plenty of people who do it that way. They're just like, "Devil may care. I'm just going to do this," which I have seen worked before, but in my own experience, I've seen not work just as often. So, the limited budget leads me to believe that you may not have the job as of right now, or a career, or an income. So, for me, it's about finding an income, at least, at first. It doesn't need to be something you love, but it needs to be something that removes a lot of the fear from you.

Ryder Carroll: [00:24:41] It's going to be hard enough figuring out how you're going to get the materials, how are you going to get the site built, who is going to do your finances. There are all these very unsexy parts about creating a business that are going to be your responsibility, and you don't want all those things to be sitting on this shaky foundation of, "How am I going to pay my bills?"  That was something that became clear to me all too often. You can't do good work when you're constantly dreading rent.

Ryder Carroll: [00:25:11] Now, that being said, essentially, I would say the first step is identifying what it is that matters to you. I think that that's really important because if you just want to start a business for the sake of starting a business, that's not going to sustain you. The most lethal adversary in starting any business is time. And in time, your will will be challenged, your resolve will be challenged. And if you don't believe in what you're doing or if it doesn't truly inspire you, then chances are you're not going to be able to sustain long enough to keep that business going.

Ryder Carroll: [00:25:55] So, I feel like the finances are very secondary to the purpose of the business. Like you really want to start that online pet food store because you're passionate about that or because you have this angle that you think you can monetize eventually, I always find the second one to be more unlikely to exist because you're going to be spending all your free time working on this.

Ryder Carroll: [00:26:19] In my model where you have some kind of base income, and you start pursuing something else, you're doing that in your off hours, I think that's a good model because it also forces you to see if the sacrifice is worth it. It's like all your friends are going to this party, or you're tired, and you come home. What are you going to do? You're going to watch TV, you're going to sit down, and do another three hours of work. It's a good way to see how motivated you are to pursue this thing.

Ryder Carroll: [00:26:46] So, (A), you're removing the financial burden, plus you'll probably be making enough money from your other job to be able to finance this other piece, but you want to put yourself in a position where you can comfortably work on something because a new business is incredibly difficult to get right.

Ryder Carroll: [00:27:06] And even one thing that people don't consider is like, okay, you did this. You have this terrible day job, you have a side hustle. It starts making enough money. And then, finally, you have that wonderful moment where you can transition full time into the side hustle and focus on that as a business. That's really step one. Everything else was like a precursor to that.

Ryder Carroll: [00:27:32] Once you go full time, it's a whole different beast. And then, you have to start all over again. You're going to have bad days. Things aren't going to go right. It's not like once you go full time with your side project, your problems are over. Then, you just get a whole different set of them. So, again, my first piece of advice is truly believe in what it is that you're trying to build. Be very excited about it because that's more than money, more than anything else, you're going to need that.

Andy Molinsky: [00:28:04] Excellent. That's very good advice. I think people really appreciate hearing that. I want to kind of wrap up here with a couple of quick fire-style questions, I guess, since I'm a bit ambivalent about this myself because, honestly, I can imagine that you might be able to talk a lot about each one of these questions, but maybe just what your, sort of, off-the-top-of-your-head response might be to some of these questions. So, the first one, is just what -- And you've kind of answer this a bit, but what gets you motivated at work? I guess, at your current job, your current role, what gets you motivated?

Ryder Carroll: [00:28:44] That I am able to align my actions with my beliefs. So, I went full time with Bullet Journal because this company that I created, this job I created never makes me doubt that I'm doing the right thing or that I feel fully committed here. So, there is nothing more motivational, but it took me a very long time to get to this place.

Andy Molinsky: [00:29:09] Right. You described a great, really, I think, very useful process for how you got there too, which I think people really appreciate. Second question, a piece of advice that you remember earlier in career? Did anyone ever give you advice that you didn't take but you wish you did? Not everyone has an answer to this one but-

Ryder Carroll: [00:29:28] I'm sure, but I can't remember anything.

Andy Molinsky: [00:29:29] Right. Yeah, I know it's hard to it's hard to remember that one. Another question, how about, what do you think makes for a good mentor for young professionals? Now, I think what your advice, in essence, has been quite useful mentoring advice. I'm sure people appreciate it. You didn't talk a lot about mentors that you had. Did you have any? What do you think a good one could be?

Ryder Carroll: [00:29:55] I think a mentor is somebody that helps you think in a very different way based on experience. They don't have to be like an older version of you, but they could be somebody who had the same ambitions and got there. I would say that one of my biggest regrets is just not having spent enough time with mentors. Because of the nature of my business, people are constantly just hopping to different companies. And the few mentors I did have, they weren't there long enough for me to really benefit from it.

Ryder Carroll: [00:30:30] I think it's really important to find a mentor and to realize that also mentors are transient in some ways. You learn something from somebody, and then you can learn something from somebody else. I would say, I think, later on in my life, one of my greatest mentors was a metal teacher because he taught me about discipline. It doesn't really align with what I ended up doing, but his take on discipline was very formative. So, sometimes, you can find people who teach you something from an unexpected perspective.

Andy Molinsky: [00:31:02] Was that metal, meaning like silver, gold, that type of metal?

Ryder Carroll: [00:31:08] Yeah. In college, I took a metalsmithing.

Andy Molinsky: [00:31:11] And what was his insight? I'm curious.

Ryder Carroll: [00:31:17] It can't be encapsulated in a phrase. I mean, he kind of led by example, and he was very hard, and he had no sense of humor, but he was always ready to answered any questions, and he always welcomed people who they showed up. He's very hard core but, for some reason, it was like if you put in the work, he respected you, and you really tried to earn that respect, and he would show up as well. And that was great. He would really try to figure out how to help you and kind of get you to the other side.

Andy Molinsky: [00:31:54] It's funny because it sounds like that's what you're doing for -- The advice you're giving us is really the same thing. I mean, you're not -- I think, what you've said today is not, sort of, like a snap-your-fingers, sort of, quick-fix situation. It's more like if you show up, and if you do the work, and if you follow this plan, you'll eventually get maybe to the point where you can pursue your passion. And then, you said that that's where it begins. That's where the hard part begins. So, it's interesting. In some ways, you've provided that to us today.

Andy Molinsky: [00:32:25] So, I think we're going to end it here. This has been a really interesting interview. And I wanted to thank you so much for being our guest. For people who want to learn more about you, what you do, Bullet Journal, et cetera, what's the best way they can find you?

Ryder Carroll: [00:32:41] bulletjournal.com, and then @bulletjournal on most social networks.

Andy Molinsky: [00:32:46] Cool. Well, again, I really appreciate it. I learned a lot too. And thanks again for your time.

Ryder Carroll: [00:32:52] Thank you so much for having me.