Angela Duckworth: [00:00:00] I would suggest as a rule of thumb that young people do more listening than speaking at the beginning only because you can't listen and talk at the same time, and you really need to know everything there is to be known in order to make a useful contribution.

Andy Molinsky: [00:00:20] Welcome to From the Dorm Room to the Board Room, a podcast where we provide insights, tips, and inspiration for college students and young professionals, so they can make a really successful transition from college life to the professional world and beyond.

Andy Molinsky: [00:00:37] My name is Andy Molinsky, and I'm your host. I am also a Professor of Organizational Behavior and International Management at Brandeis University's International Business School where we record and produce this podcast.

Andy Molinsky: [00:00:56] Today, we have a very special guest with us. Angela Duckworth is a Professor of Psychology at the University of Pennsylvania, the Founder and CEO of Character Lab, a nonprofit whose mission is to advance the science and practice of character development. You probably know her best as the author of the book, Grit: The Power of Passion and Perseverance, which was a number one New York Times best seller.

Andy Molinsky: [00:01:24] I think Angela has a great story to tell all of us about life and career transitions. She's really what this podcast is all about. In her late 20s, Angela left a demanding job as a management consultant to teach Math to seventh graders in New York City Public Schools. Several years in the classroom taught her that effort was tremendously important to success. And to begin to solve the mystery of why some people work so much harder and longer than others, Angela entered the PhD Program in Psychology at the University of Pennsylvania where she is now a professor. I am so honored that Angela has agreed to join us here on the podcast today. Welcome, Angela.

Angela Duckworth: [00:02:11] Thanks so much for having me.

Andy Molinsky: [00:02:13] Great. So, I'd love to start by hearing a bit about what you do now, what's your job, how long have you been doing this job, if you like it.

Angela Duckworth: [00:02:23] I love what I do, and I always ask people when I sit next to them on an airplane, "Do you love what I do?" In fact, I asked that question before I ask, "Who are you? Where did you grow up?" I am a psychologist, and I am trying to help kids do better in life in every sense of the word of better. And I am a professor here at the University of Pennsylvania. And I'm the CEO and Founder of a nonprofit called Character Lab.

Andy Molinsky: [00:02:48] And where did you go to college? Actually, a couple of questions. Where did you go to college? What did you major in? Did you like college? You know, just, in general, tell us about your college experience.

Angela Duckworth: [00:02:58] I went to Harvard. I'm the Class of '92. So, I went to Harvard a long time ago. And I was a Neurobiology Major, in part because I was failing neurobiology, the course. And it was about the time that, you know, you get advice from professors, the professors say you should drop the course, and I asked, you know, like, "Where is the registrar?" You know, it's like, "Oh, it's up the street." And I was like, "Okay, great. I'm going to go over to the registrar." And I did, and instead of dropping the course, I very obstinately, maybe greedily, decided to major in it to prove him wrong.

Angela Duckworth: [00:03:31] I was a very determined student. I think I got a lot out of my college experience. But I will say this, if you just say, you know, of all the days that you were in school as an undergraduate, how many days were you really happy and relaxed? I would say very few. So, I had a lot of empathy for young people who are navigating those troubled waters between the ages of 18 and 22. And for some people, of course, a little older. But, yeah, college is really hard for me. I was a young adult, and that's a hard thing to be.

Andy Molinsky: [00:04:00] And so, when you were majoring in neurobiology, did you have a sense of what was going to come next? Because it sounds like it was hard, but then you decide you want to stick with it. Were you sticking with it for some career idea, or was it just because, you know, you, kind of, just wanted to stick with it?

Angela Duckworth: [00:04:16] I think I had some idea that maybe I would go into medicine or into medical research. You know, like most young adults, I didn't quite know. I was very jealous, actually, and I still am of people who know so early in life that, you know, you ask them when they're 18, and they have like the next four decades mapped out. That was not me. I didn't know. And, in fact, you know, my life had to go a couple of turns, and I ended up not going to medical school, and actually not becoming a neurobiologist. I'm a psychologist, which is pretty different.

Andy Molinsky: [00:04:52] So then, that's actually a great segue. And immediately after college, what did you do? Actually, maybe even take yourself back to that senior year thinking of what you were going to do. I remember mine. What were you going to do after college? What were you thinking? What was going to be your first job? You know, what was that mindset like? What were you thinking? What you're feeling? As much as you can remember.

Angela Duckworth: [00:05:15] I was premed, at a point, which is almost the default when you're a Biology or a neurobiology Major. You know, you look to your left, you look to your right, kind of everybody's premed, or it feels that way. So, I guess, I would say that I was premed also. My father wanted me to go to medical school. So, there were a lot of forces pushing me in the direction of taking the MCAT, and then going to medical school, either for an MD or an MD-PhD.

Angela Duckworth: [00:05:39] But a funny thing happened on the way to medical school, and that is that I started working with kids in the neighborhoods that were just near our campus. And in sharp contrast to the, like, green lawns and the, you know, lecture halls, you know, that dated back centuries of like cathedrals of knowledge, when I went into the schools that were just a stone's throw away, you know, I saw poverty, I saw inequality, I saw kids who were four grade levels below where they should be even by the time they were in fifth grade.

Angela Duckworth: [00:06:11] So, that put me on a different course. I ended up starting a school, a summer school, and an after-school program right after college. We opened two weeks after I received my diploma. And so, I have ever since then been working in education and trying to figure out how to get kids to be more successful, happier, and healthier.

Andy Molinsky: [00:06:32] Wow. So, that's pretty entrepreneurial. Did you do that on your own? Was it through Harvard? Was it -- yeah, tell us about that.

Angela Duckworth: [00:06:40] Well, I do have maybe a bit of a social entrepreneur streak. So, yeah, when I had this idea -- and by the way, think like many people, it wasn't really my idea. So, I had gone to teach in a summer school program the summer before my senior year, and it was called Summer Bridge in New Orleans. And it was not my idea, but it was a brilliant idea, which is to get young people like me to teach even younger kids. So, these were middle school kids. So, it was older kids teaching younger kids for a summer. And I taught Biology 101, and I also created a course called Ecology 101. We learned about the environment.

Angela Duckworth: [00:07:17] And I worked harder than I've ever worked in my life, and I had already been a hard worker at that point, but I remember what it felt like to be bone tired for the first time in my life, but also to feel fulfilled, to feel like I had a purpose. And so, I came back to Harvard that year, and I told my dad, actually, and my mom that I was going to not take the MCAT, and I was not going to go to medical school after college, I was going to start a summer program for low-income kids. And, you know, I think my dad stopped speaking to me for a few months, but it was not just me being invincible. I not only inherited this good idea from some educators in New Orleans, I just wanted to replicate it.

Angela Duckworth: [00:07:56] I also had just an enormous network of people who were -- you know, some of them were professors and administrators at Harvard and MIT who said like, "I'll let you use this dorm. I'll introduce you to this wealthy person." And then, also people in the Cambridge Public Schools. I just, last week, spoke to the assistant superintendent, who was, at that time, the decision maker who let me in, and I said to her, "You know, thank you," because if it weren't for people like that, you know, young people who have a bit of a social entrepreneurship, I don't think anybody can get anywhere. It's not about, I think, being invincible. It's really about having the support of a lot of people.

Andy Molinsky: [00:08:34] It sounds like, just from hearing your story too, that, you know, a lot of people, I think, when they think about being an entrepreneur or doing something new, they think in very grandiose terms like, "I'm going to start the next Facebook. I'm going to start the next Google," but it sounds like you really, kind of, in a very grounded way, like, thought about your experience, reflected on it, when that stone's throw away from where you were saw a challenge, saw a problem, tried to solve it, used your resources very locally. Is that right?

Angela Duckworth: [00:09:03] Yeah, that's exactly right. And I generally think that's how, not only good social entrepreneurship ideas come from, but as an academic, I would tell you that most great research just comes from your own experience and seeing something very, very close up, and then realizing, you know, what you want to do about it, what you want to learn more. And I don't know anybody who's really come to a good idea either in changing the world or in studying something academically that didn't take that path.

Andy Molinsky: [00:09:31] And so, my next question, I think you might have answered, but it's, actually, when did you finally figure out what you wanted to do for a living? And it sounds like we've heard a bit about it, but there must have been a transition from, I guess, running and creating that school to where you are now. Do you want to say a bit about that?

Angela Duckworth: [00:09:49] The idea of starting a summer school and an after-school program was one chapter, and that was the chapter between the ages of 22 and 24. And then, there were several others. I was in management consulting, you know, McKinsey consultant for a year. I went to Oxford and studied Neuroscience. I was a classroom teacher for several years. I ran a non-profit. There were many chapters.

Angela Duckworth: [00:10:11] And then, I was 32, and I was wondering what the next chapter would be. But, really, actually, I wanted to know what the rest of the book was going to be. And I think for many people, there is a feeling of, you know, "I know I'm a hard worker. I know have a lot of energy. I know vaguely what I care about. But I don't know particularly what I want to do with my life and my career." And I felt that way myself.

Angela Duckworth: [00:10:31] After many nights of crying on the couch to my husband and feeling a bit lost, I really, actually, took this top-down approach. I was like, "Okay. Who am I? And what am I good at? And what do I enjoy?" And I kind of put it together almost like a math problem. I was like, "All right. I am somebody who really cares about kids, but I also love, you know, understanding human behavior. And I saw these problems that essentially motivational in kids that I wanted to understand better and work on. I knew I liked math. I was a math teacher before. So, that meant I like statistics. I like to write."

Angela Duckworth: [00:11:04] I kind of put it all together, and I thought, "You know what, I should become a psychology researcher and professor, and work on these problems, and thereby, you know, make an effect in education, maybe not through being a teacher, which I had been, maybe not through starting a school." And so, that's how I found my path. And it took me a full decade between 22 and 32 to figure that out.

Andy Molinsky: [00:11:27] Wow. It sounds like you used your McKinsey consulting approach to figure out your own life.

Angela Duckworth: [00:11:32] I did, I did. It was a little bit of McKinsey, a little bit of logic there. And, you know, that's very McKinsey's. So, you know. But, you know, when people knock on my door, and they're 22, 25, 26, quite frankly, you know, any age, and they tell me that they're kind of tortured, you know, they're like wringing their hands trying to figure out what to do, you know, I can empathize with that. I really can. I was not one of those people who knew what they wanted to do when they were, you know, eight years old.

Andy Molinsky: [00:11:56] Yeah. No, I think I have a similar story. So, it's now time for the, sort of, advice section of our discussion. We'd love to hear some advice you have for students, young professionals. And so, our first question is, what two to three real misconceptions do you think young professionals have when entering the workplace?

Angela Duckworth: [00:12:21] I think one misconception is that if you don't, you know, have a calling in your first job, then you shouldn't really throw yourself into it with passion. My, maybe, most important piece of advice for people who are having that first job is to, you know, understand their commitment. It doesn't mean you're going to work there for the rest of your life, but maybe you've committed for a year, or maybe you've committed for two, I think that should be clear between you and your manager, so that they're not left in the lurch.

Angela Duckworth: [00:12:49] And then, I would really say, you know, when you've made that commitment, you know, even if it's not forever, just throw yourself into it. Be amazing. You know, learn as much as you can, contribute as much as you can. Your recommendation and the network that you build, but also just your integrity, these are all reasons, not kind of, you know, phone it in or like do the bare minimum. And young people who I know were like, "Well, I know I don't want to do this forever, so I'm going to work from 9:00 to 5:00, and then I'm going to you know do lots of other stuff afterwards." I often find that these are people who don't have a great next chapter because, honestly, you know, nobody is going to be opening doors for them after that.

Andy Molinsky: [00:13:27] Yeah, that's very true. And looking back, we talked a little bit about your skills from college, your Neurobiology Major and so on. So, if you do look back, which skills and knowledge from college ended up being useful for your career? And can you think of something you expected to be helpful but that wasn't?

Angela Duckworth: [00:13:46] One technique that I developed when I was in college -- you know, I was very intimidated. I went to a public school, a large, you know, New Jersey public school. And then, I went from there to Harvard. And it's very intimidating when you're sitting next to kids who went to, you know, Andover, who they're just so much more sophisticated, at least, than I was, right. And, you know, it felt to me like they'd already been in college for three years, and I was like this bumpkin. I didn't know how to study right. I didn't know how to read as much as, you know, we were assigned to read. And I really did struggle myself.

Angela Duckworth: [00:14:19] One of the things I learned that helped me a lot is that when I was in lecture, I sat in the front row, and I leaned forward, and I hung on the professor's every word. I was the opposite of, you know, a multitasker. And I think that's helped me ever since. You know, when I'm in a really, really difficult position, I mean, I just concentrate entirely as opposed to, you know, kind of like, "Oh, well, I'll sort of pay attention, but I'll also -- like, I'll make it up later, you know. I'll study what happened later." I think, you know, that undivided attention that I learned to do by necessity has actually helped me in many ways afterwards.

Angela Duckworth: [00:14:56] In terms of unexpected, you know, like something that I did or picked up that surprised me later on, you know, I will say that, you know, there are things where you think like, "Oh, this isn't going to be important to me." I remember I took this one class on ancient Chinese bronze sculptures, and it was just so boring to me. I was like, "I do not care. I, like, can't see another urn."

Angela Duckworth: [00:15:21] But I do remember actually in that class when I did what I just said, I leaned forward, I pinned. I mean, I hung on the professor's words. You know, the professor actually had a very simple point in that class, which is that, you know, civilization comes from the concentration of resources. And I remember thinking at the time like, "Well, this will never be helpful to me," like ancient Chinese bronzes and their history. But will tell you that, now, over 25 years later, some of the basic things that that professor was saying about the nature of history and the nature of innovation, you know, I do think about.

Angela Duckworth: [00:15:54] And that is why I think even if you, at the moment, think like, "I'll never use this again," you never know. And in many ways, I think that the little things I picked up on the way, they do weave back in to what I'm doing now.

Andy Molinsky: [00:16:08] That's interesting, the urns.

Angela Duckworth: [00:16:09] Yeah, exactly. [crosstalk].

Andy Molinsky: [00:16:11] I had this image of you in class. So, actually, switching gears slightly in a third question. My question is, in your view, what does it mean to be a great leader? And I know it's, kind of, a grandiose question, but I do also know that you've had some leadership experience. So, you know, what's your view of what it means, what it takes to be a great leader?

Angela Duckworth: [00:16:37] I guess, a great leader brings about things that wouldn't have happened without them. And I think most great leaders do that in, at least, two ways. One is by having a vision for something that nobody else can see quite as sharply as you can. And then, you set it down. And then, everyone says, "Oh my gosh, that's obvious." They're like, "Yes, we should do that." The second way that a great leader is a great leader is they, basically, bring out the best in the individuals who are working with them. So, under their leadership, people are inspired. Under their leadership, they are developed, they're getting feedback on how they can improve.

Angela Duckworth: [00:17:14] I will not classify myself, actually, as a great leader. I actually don't think I am. And it is not false humility. I mean, I think, I'm a pretty good leader, but I'm working actually now with a young guy who grew up in Miami, is the son of two Cuban immigrants, and he's 26. So, he's just about half my age or, you know, a little bit more than that.

Angela Duckworth: [00:17:34] And on both those skills, I look at him, and I think, "Well, I might be a slightly more advanced psychologist, but you're in both of these categories in terms of having strategic vision and, also, bringing out the best. Like you're a better leader." And I think part of doing anything is also recognizing your limitations. And so, as I've kind of figure that out, I've let him do actually more of the leadership, you know, when it comes to running our nonprofit.

Andy Molinsky: [00:18:03] That's great. So, humility in some ways is important to being a leader as well. Letting someone else take the lead. So, if you could offer one piece of career advice to a young professional, what would it be?

Angela Duckworth: [00:18:16] Career advice is maybe, you know, the thing that comes to mind is I had a young consultant call me, and they said, you know, "I'm at McKinsey actually, and I don't know if I want to be here anymore." And I start asking questions. And I will say that the error that that young person was making, not that young actually, but, at least, in my opinion was that, you know, they had all their lives on hard things. And in fact, I advocate for doing hard things. And like I advocate that children learn to do hard things. But I think one danger is like just figuring that you should just do the hard thing no matter what is that you, sometimes, overlook your strengths.

Angela Duckworth: [00:18:50] And when I talked to this person about what they were naturally interested in, where their attention gravitated when they had free time with things that were easy for them, you know, they kind of discounted them as like, "Well, obviously, you don't make career choices based on that." There is an expression in sports that you should raise your strengths, and then train your weaknesses. And my advice to young people is to take an accounting of your strengths, and then put yourself in a career where those are going to be raised on a daily basis.

Angela Duckworth: [00:19:17] But no matter what you pick, I mean even Usain Bolt, who has many natural strengths for being a sprinter, had weaknesses. And after he chose track, he then had to work on his core because he had scoliosis. So, he had to remediate that. And the key here is that it's not about always choosing the path of greatest resistance but, in fact, choose the path of least resistance, and then work on those things that you have to work on.

Andy Molinsky: [00:19:41] Interesting. That's great advice. So, it's now time for a student question. And today's question comes from Kaley, who is an Economics Major from Massachusetts. So, let's hear her question.

Kaley: [00:19:55] My question is, as someone who is just beginning my professional career, how do you balance advocating for your own ideas while respecting the knowledge and expertise of those around you?

Angela Duckworth: [00:20:06] This is a great question. You know, the balance between listening and talking is one way to think about that question. And I like to say when I give talks, I can't listen and talk at the same time. Frankly, I'd prefer to listen because I learn more, but I'm also here to say something and be useful. I would suggest as a rule of thumb that young people do more listening than speaking at the beginning only because you can't listen and talk at the same time.

Angela Duckworth: [00:20:31] And you really need to know everything there is to be known in order to make a useful contribution. You know, once you have figured out that in a particular situation, for a particular problem that, you know, your company or your organization is working on that you've heard what there is to be listened to, and then you have something to say, then, of course, don't hesitate.

Angela Duckworth: [00:20:54] Maybe one other piece of advice, which is now you have something to say, you've listened a lot, you have something to say, you have a contribution, I would write it down, and I would write it down in the way that Jeff Bezos recommends, which is to craft a memo that you work on until it is extremely clear and precise, and share your thoughts that way.

Angela Duckworth: [00:21:12] I have typically found that young employees are not as - and nobody is honestly, including me - as articulate in spoken conversation than they are in written word. And so, this is an opportunity for you to economize on the time that anyone would need to spend listening to what you have to say and, also, allows you to put your best argument forward as forcefully as you can.

Andy Molinsky: [00:21:37] All right, great. That's really good advice. I'm sure Kaley will appreciate that. And so, we're nearing the end of our chat. And, now, it's time for what we call a quick-fire round. I'm going to ask you five super quick questions, and you can just answer the best that you can off the top of your head. Are you ready?

Angela Duckworth: [00:21:56] Yeah.

Andy Molinsky: [00:21:56] Okay. So, number one, what gets you motivated at work?

Angela Duckworth: [00:22:00] The idea that this has meaning and purpose, that I will go to my deathbed, you know, working on something that matters.

Andy Molinsky: [00:22:07] What's a piece of advice someone gave you earlier in your career that you didn't take, but you wish you did?

Angela Duckworth: [00:22:16] A professor told me once everyone's life tells a story. Don't worry so much about telling the right story or even the best story. Try to tell a story that you're proud of. And I have mostly taken that advice, but, sometimes, I forget.

Andy Molinsky: [00:22:29] What makes a good mentor, in your mind, for young professionals?

Angela Duckworth: [00:22:37] I think, a great mentor is, first and foremost, a model of what you are trying to be yourself. You know, if you want to be a kind person, then find a mentor who is especially kind. If you want to be an efficient person, find a mentor who is especially efficient.

Andy Molinsky: [00:22:50] What were the best and worst parts of your college experience? I know that's a big question but quickly, as best you can, the best and worst parts.

Angela Duckworth: [00:23:00] I think the best part of my college experience is that I learned to learn, and I learned that, you know, my ability to learn was not limited by my SAT score or, you know, where I went to school for high school, but just really limited by my own openness, you know, to learning new strategies, new techniques. So, I learned to learn. I developed a lot of confidence.

Angela Duckworth: [00:23:20] And maybe my worst part was that I was lonely. I was like really, really lonely, really lonely, you know, and unhappy for large parts of my undergraduate career. And that, I think, is not to say that I hope anybody else out there is as lonely as I was, but if you are, and it's really hard for you, you're not alone. I know a lot of people who struggle, and it generally gets better.

Andy Molinsky: [00:23:45] You know, I think that's advice that will be really appreciated because, you know, that's the kind of thing a lot of people might not talk about, but, you know, they might feel. And our final question is, if you could go back in time, what's one piece of advice you'd give to the 20-year-old college version of yourself?

Angela Duckworth: [00:24:05] If I could give one piece of advice to my 20-year-old younger self, I would say, you know, find a few people, you know, doesn't have to be a million people, maybe one person who you really want to invest and have a better relationship with. There were a couple of people that I now look back and say, "You know what, I wish I had this person as an old friend on speed dial." And our lives kind of, you know, separated, and I hardly ever talk, or say that to them, or see them. So, you know, relationships, I will tell you, as a scientist, are the most important predictor, the strongest predictor of being happy. And so, don't under-invest in friendship when you are at the age that you are now.

Andy Molinsky: [00:24:48] Okay. So, we're at the end of our chat. I want to thank you so much for being our guest today. Can you tell listeners how they can learn more about you and the work you do?

Angela Duckworth: [00:25:00] Absolutely. If you want to see the work on Grit and other work on how to develop into a thriving individual, you can visit characterlab.org. And we put everything out there, including things that I've written for free.

Andy Molinsky: [00:25:14] Awesome. Thank you so much again for taking the time. And I really enjoyed hearing what you had to say. And I know our listeners will as well.

Angela Duckworth: [00:25:21] Thank you. I love this conversation. It was great.

Andy Molinsky: [00:25:27] Thank you for listening to From the Dorm Room to the Board Room. If you're interested in learning more about the work that I do and helping people step outside their comfort zones and transition successfully into the professional world, please visit my website, www.andymolinsky.com. That's A-N-D-Y-M-O-L-I-N-S-K-Y dot com. And, also, feel free to email me directly at andy@andymolinsky.com with any feedback or ideas for guests for future podcasts.

Andy Molinsky: [00:25:58] This podcast is brought to you by Brandeis University's International Business School. By teaching rigorous business, finance, and economics, connecting students to best practices, and immersing them in international experiences, Brandeis International Business School prepares exceptional individuals from around the globe to become principled professionals in companies and public institutions worldwide. Thank you so much for listening.