Paul English: [00:00:00] People are taking five classes at once that are all different topics where when you work in a professional company, you typically only work at one thing, and you have to learn how to become, rather than a jack of all trades, as a student, have a master craftsman and perfect something that you're working on.

Andy Molinsky: [00:00:24] Welcome to From the Dorm Room to the Board Room, a podcast where we provide insights, tips, and inspiration for college students and young professionals, so they can make a really successful transition from college life to the professional world and beyond.

Andy Molinsky: [00:00:42] My name is Andy Molinsky, and I'm your host. I'm also a Professor of Organizational Behavior and International Management at Brandeis University's International Business School, where we record and produce this podcast.

Andy Molinsky: [00:01:01] Okay. So, today's guest is Paul English. Paul is the Co-Founder of five software companies: Lola.com, kayak.com, GetHuman, Boston Light, and Intermute. And nd he's also the founder of three nonprofits: summits.org, kingboston.org and winterwalkboston.org. Paul, thanks so much for being with us.

Paul English: [00:01:25] Sure, it's great to be here.

Andy Molinsky: [00:01:27] So, let's hear a bit about your story. I know you've had a tremendous amount of experience in the entrepreneurial world, but let's rewind. Where did you go to college? What was that like? What did you major in? Tell us a bit about that experience.

Paul English: [00:01:43] Yeah, sure. Well, let me just go a little bit back before that. I went to Boston Latin High School. I grew up in West Roxbury. But before Boston Latin, I switched school every year due to, I think, today, you would say ADHD. I'm not sure they might have that term back when I was in school in the '70s and '80s. I went to Boston Latin. It was a good school. I didn't do well as a student but was not sure if I was going to go to college or not.

Paul English: [00:02:10] I actually only really applied to one college and got rejected, which is Boston College. And then, last minute. So, I was thinking maybe I'll just work. I'm a self-trained programmer, and maybe I would just get a job, but my parents found out I could go to any state school for free because I aced my SATs. So, I always test well on standardized tests even though I didn't do well in school.

Paul English: [00:02:34] So, I went to UMass Boston. I studied Music and Computers. On the music side, I ended up writing arrangements for like a 15-piece jazz band, which was really fun. I played a few different instruments. But I studied computer science and ended up getting my degree in that. I worked almost full time from most of my years at UMass. I worked as a programmer. And I would switch jobs every year or a year and a half just to try to continue work on my breadth of engineering background.

Andy Molinsky: [00:03:06] Okay, that sounds really interesting. And so, then, what was your first -- what was your mindset like, and what was your experience like right as you finished college and started your professional journey?

Paul English: [00:03:17] It's funny. All within one month, I got -- after my bachelor's degree, I was working full time as a programmer. And then, I went immediately into getting my master's degree in computer science. And within a month, I remember I bought a house, I got married, I got my master's degree, and began a new job. So, I was pretty, I guess, I was a prolific as a programmer back then. I was working hard. I worked for the Air Force. I worked for a company called Haemonetics, building blood machines. I did accounting software. I did video game development. I have a brother who is kind of famous in game program. I did work for him for a couple of years.

Paul English: [00:03:55] My first real job out of college after I got a master's degree was in a document management company in Cambridge called Interleaf. It's a company that later got sold to Broad Vision, kind of, at the beginning of the web. And I ended up working there for six years, most of it as a programmer. But then, when I was done there, I think I was head of engineering. And at one point, I actually ran marketing as well, but that was my first and only job as an employee. And then, after that, I've been doing a string of startups.

Andy Molinsky: [00:04:30] I have to get into that. So, you were an employee. I mean, tell us about your first, sort of, entrepreneurial startup venture because, I mean you -- how does someone even get into that mindset? I mean, nowadays, in 2018, I think, it's pretty easy because it's so easy to do. There's so many out there. It's almost like a rite of passage, but I think in the days, you're talking about it, but it wasn't so much the case. Can you tell us about how you kind of got into that?

Paul English: [00:04:55] It, actually, it's one of the jobs. It's funny that I forgot about it for a second. After Interleaf, I got recruited away to an internet startup called NetCentric. And we're a VC-backed startup in Cambridge. And I was hired to run engineering there. It was a 10-person company. And then, we grew. I don't remember how many, but it might have been 50 by the end of my first year there. And then, I left after one year.

Paul English: [00:05:20] And I've joked with the founder of the company who I've met recently that my memory is that he fired me. His memory is that I quit. I'm not sure which memory is more accurate. But after a year, I left, you know, with a little bit of turmoil that the founder and I had some disagreements on how to manage teams and all that. And I remember leaving then and feeling like a failure, that I was very successful at Interleaf. There for six years with progressive promotion and all that. And then, ultimately, failed in this startup.

Paul English: [00:05:51] And I left thinking I don't know if I should be into management, if I should be programming. And so, I kind of took some time off and ended up developing a website. And I built a website. I spent a year working on that website. That led to the creation of my first real company, which was an e-commerce company, Boston Light, that I ended up selling to Intuit. But it really started from building my own game site as a way for me to get back into hands-on engineering.

Andy Molinsky: [00:06:25] And did you -- when you started building that game site, did you have the, I guess -- how would I say it? Did you have the sense that it was going to grow into a business and so on or were you just sort of doing it for some other motivation?

Paul English: [00:06:37] Initially, I was very intrigued. This goes back to 1997, and I was intrigued with making games on the web. And there were not a lot of great game sites back in '97. And so, I really want to push the envelope to create very interactive, generates e-mail addresses, web pages, we can go and replay games, chat, discussion forum where we had this moderation and banning people that are inappropriate, run tournaments, run games where internet connection is going up and down all the time. So, it worked well with productivity problems.

Paul English: [00:07:14] And Yahoo actually came after me after about a year and looked at acquiring my little two-person company, and they wanted me to run Yahoo games. I ended up turning that down because I was married at the time, and my wife did not want to move to California, which is ultimately what Yahoo wanted me to do. But I guess, initially, as far as goals, I would say my goals were to build a really great game, get a lot of people playing, and I wasn't thinking so much about the business.

Andy Molinsky: [00:07:42] Interesting. And then, from there, you had a string of startups, as you said. I mean, as a layperson, not in that world, but one that I'm most familiar with is Kayak. Is that one that's later on or can you just tell us a bit about your experiences, hit some of the highlights, some of your -- sort of, behind the curtain, what it was like for you and so on.

Paul English: [00:08:03] I mean, after Boston Light Company, I sold to intuit. I served then as VP of Technology for Intuit for a few years. I co-founded the company with my brother, Ed English, and that was called Intermute. And we built security software. We ended up seeing that Trend Micro. And Ed was the CEO of that company. I was the Director, and I also built an engineering team focused on one product that I designed to do spam filtering. It was a successful product. So, that was my second one. I did that with my brother who himself is a successful entrepreneur.

Paul English: [00:08:39] And then, after working at Intuit and after developing products for Intermute, I took a little bit of time off to take care of my dad. My mom had passed away. My father had Alzheimer's. I helped take care of him. And then, ultimately after my father passed away, I went -- Let me see. I went on a trip to Haiti because I was interested in giving money away that I had made in selling my company. And on the way back, I remember when my plane landed at Logan, I thought I want to make a lot of money, so I can help more people.

Paul English: [00:09:13] And I called a friend of mine, Bill Kaiser at Greylock and said, "I sold my last company. It did really well. I want to create another company and really kind of swing for the fences." He set up an office meet for me at Greylock as an entrepreneur-in-residence. And I looked at some deals for them. And then, ultimately, ran into Steve Hafner, who had the original idea for Kayak. And he and I decided in December of 2003 to start that company together. And I, then, spent 10 years working with him, and I was responsible to the design and building of the website and the mobile app. And it turned out to be a pretty good success.

Andy Molinsky: [00:09:48] Let's look back from college. You talked a bit about college. You even talked about Boston Latin. What do you think you learned in college or in high school that, sort of -- or even just growing up that's been an asset to you today? I'm sure it wasn't the Latin you learned or maybe it was a Latin, or I'm not even sure. Did you learn Latin? What-

Paul English: [00:10:07] Yeah, I did learn Latin, but then I have to [inaudible].

Andy Molinsky: [00:10:09] You're right.

Paul English: [00:10:13] I'm one of seven children. So, a family of nine and we grew up in, I think, probably like a three-bedroom house, one-bathroom, small house. And growing up in tight quarters made me very focused on who's around me, who's doing well today, who's upset kind of like family dynamics. And that was drilled into me for the 18 years I've lived at home. And that has caused me to think quite a bit about teams. What's working well on a team? What's not working well? So, I think that programming of me started as a child.

Paul English: [00:10:46] And then, as far as at school, at UMass, one of the coolest things about UMass Boston, it's a really diverse student body, and a lot international, a lot of people of different ages, different races. And I learned about how to build teams where people come from very different backgrounds. And that has been really useful to me.

Andy Molinsky: [00:11:14] Interesting. Did you ever get any advice earlier in your career that maybe you didn't take but wished you did, or even advice that that turned out to be really instrumental and helpful? Just I'm curious about the role of advice and maybe even mentoring.

Paul English: [00:11:32] Yeah. One thing I wish I had gotten stronger mentoring when I was programming and making the transition from programming into management was words matter. And they say you only have one chance to make a first impression. And looking back on my career, I know that when I was sort of like a hotshot programmer, and then director of engineering, I was very impatient. I wanted everything immediately. I was really picky about quality, the user experience, the quality of the code. And I was probably a little rough with people that I perceived to not be fast or whatever.

Paul English: [00:12:11] And I look back, and I regret that, and I wish I had been more of a mentor and coach than a critic. So, I would encourage people early in their careers, if you're really strong at your crafts, don't just become a critic to people that you perceive as not as strong but become a coach.

Andy Molinsky: [00:12:31] Interesting. I like that piece of advice. How about misconceptions that you think college students have entering the workplace? As a professor, I see college students all the time, and there's a big gap leaving the culture and world of college to the culture and world of being a professional. What do you think they're missing on in terms of what they're anticipating and what the reality is?

Paul English: [00:12:59] I think a couple of things. One is is the value of teams. And when you leave academia and go into work in a professional company, you live or die based on the success of the team around you, not based on your own performance per se. So, making sure that people are really tuned to what's working and what's not working, and looking for coaching and mentoring, and how to improve team dynamics is something that's really critically important. I think the most important skill for people to develop early in their careers.

Paul English: [00:13:32] And then, the second thing is it's for people who are taking five classes at once that are all different topics, where when you work in a professional company, you typically only work at one thing, and you have to learn how to become, rather than a jack of all trades as a student, become a master craftsman and perfect something that you're working on. And rather than having assignments that would take weeks to do as a student, you're going to work on things that take months, if not longer, and really have the tenacity and the stamina to perfect something with a team over several months, or quarters, or years. And that's a very different feel than working in academia.

Andy Molinsky: [00:14:19] Yeah, it's interesting. I hear it. I really want to dig in just for a second a bit more on that, on your last point there, because I do hear a lot of professionals give different opinions on the idea about whether you want to become a generalist early on or whether you want to become a specialist. And it sounds like from your work experience, it really has been an asset to you to become a specialist in terms of your craft and your expertise. Is that something that you recommend young people focus on?

Paul English: [00:14:48] Yeah. I do think people, ultimately, want to start in a company or go into management. That's great, but I would start your career on becoming a phenomenal individual contributor on a team and trying to make that team successful. I think looking to sports. Great coaches can help advise you on how to participate on a team inside a company. I like the Patriots. I like that, "Do your job you. Be really good at your job, and everyone knows what their job is.".

Paul English: [00:15:20] I liked when -- I remember when I went to the first Tom Brady Super Bowl in New Orleans in 2002. I loved how St. Louis announced their players one at a time when they went out to the field. And it was time for the Patriots. They said, "And the New England Patriots," and they all ran up the field together where what Belichick is saying is, "We live or die as a team. It's not really individuals." So, you need to do your job as an individual and make sure you're productive as a member of that team. But the success is the success of the team. And having that balance where you must be successful as an individual beginning of your career, become really good at whatever your craft is, but do it to propel a team forward.

Andy Molinsky: [00:16:01] I love that, coming from Boston as well, and I'm a huge Patriots fan. So, it rings true. One last question for you. Now, if you could go back in time, if you had a time machine, and you could sort of talk to the 20-year-old version of yourself or 19 or 20, whatever it is, that version of yourself, I guess, that was at UMass, and considering what to do next, and about to embark on a career, knowing what you know now what, might you hypothetically tell the early version of yourself back then?

Paul English: [00:16:31] I think I would -- I mean, I'm really [indiscernible] what I said a few moments ago, which is words matter, and try to become a coach, not a critic. It's really important to focus on the team output and, also, look for mentors and learn from them.

Andy Molinsky: [00:16:50] Yeah. Any any suggestions about how to find a mentor? I know I know you can't just go up to someone and say, "Hey, can you be my mentor?" Is there any any tips on that?"

Paul English: [00:17:02] I think it's always networking, going to events. Also, your current company, try to figure out who are the strongest people at your company, and just looking for who are the highest-performing people around you, and trying to successfully get time from them. And I've never said to someone, "Can you be my mentor?" But when someone is really impressive to me, I try to get just a little bit of time with them, and to make sure that time is valuable for that person as well. And then, if that discussion goes well, I'll try to get time for them again, and just try to keep connecting with them on more and more of things that you're trying to learn.

Andy Molinsky: [00:17:37] That's great. Thank you so much. This has really been insightful. And I want to thank you so much for your time today. If people want to learn more about you and all the neat companies and nonprofits you've started, where can they go?

Paul English: [00:17:49] I mean, if you Google me, you'll find a website. My website is just my name, paulenglish.com.

Andy Molinsky: [00:17:53] Excellent. I've already been there. I've checked it out. Awesome stuff there. Paul, thanks so much for being with us today.

Paul English: [00:17:59] All right, thanks a lot. Bye now.

Andy Molinsky: [00:18:02] Thank you for listening to From the Dorm Room to the Board Room. If you're interested in learning more about the work that I do in helping people step outside their comfort zones and transition successfully into the professional world, please visit my website, www.andymolinsky.com. That's A-N-D-Y-M-O-L-I-N-S-K-Y dot com. And also feel free to email me directly at andy@andymolinsky.com with any feedback or ideas for guests for future podcasts.

Andy Molinsky: [00:18:33] This podcast is brought to you by Brandeis University's International Business School. By teaching rigorous business finance and economics, connecting students to best practices, and immersing them in international experiences, Brandeis International Business School prepares exceptional individuals from around the globe to become principled professionals in companies and public institutions worldwide. Thank you so much for listening.