Benjamin Stone: [00:00:00] I'm lucky that I started organizing my network early on because, now, I have an incredible spreadsheet of, basically, everyone I've ever met with a little information about each person. And that really allows me to tap into my network in a way that I don't think I would have been able to do if I was just not keeping track.

Andy Molinsky: [00:00:19] Welcome to From the Dorm Room to the Board Room, a podcast where we provide insights, tips, and inspiration for college students and young professionals, so they can make a really successful transition from college life to the professional world and beyond.

Andy Molinsky: [00:00:37] My name is Andy Molinsky, and I'm your host. I am also a Professor of Organizational Behavior and International Management at Brandeis University's International Business School, where we record and produce this podcast.

Andy Molinsky: [00:00:56] Okay. Today's guest is Ben Stone. Ben is a lawyer at the national law firm, Mintz, where he helps entrepreneurs, investors, and companies generate both profits and positive social impact around the world. Now, Ben Stone, a lot of stuff before he was a lawyer, he was a Managing Director and General Counsel of an international impact investment firm. He led a team at American Express fueling high-growth entrepreneurship in the United States. He helped start Indego Africa, which is a lifestyle brand and social enterprise partnering with thousands of female entrepreneurs in Rwanda and Ghana. Really interesting. He also founded Dollar a Day, a web platform for people to discover small nonprofits with the founder of Kickstarter. Had done a lot of other things too. He has a law degree. If he's a lawyer, he has a law degree from NYU, and he went to college at Wash U in St. Louis. So, Ben, thank you so much for being with us today.

Benjamin Stone: [00:02:01] Thank you. And it's a real pleasure to be here.

Andy Molinsky: [00:02:04] Great. So, tell us about your job now. You're speaking to a bunch people who, I would guess, are not lawyers, but who knows. Maybe some of them are toying with the idea of becoming a lawyer. What do you do? And we'll go back and talk about the other stuff you've done, but what do you do now?

Benjamin Stone: [00:02:23] Absolutely. And that's a point of clarification. Through all of those different endeavors that you listed, I was also a lawyer. So, I graduated from law school pretty much directly out of college, and then went and did all those different things. So, I've been a wide variety of types of lawyers. So, from a general counsel to a corporate litigator. And, now, what I do after returning to the law firm life, after being away for almost 10 years in the field, is a corporate lawyer. And I focus mostly on emerging companies and startups. And I do a lot of venture capital, some mergers and acquisitions, and a lot of corporate counsel work. So, effectively operating as outside general counsel to a lot of really interesting startups, primarily in the technology space, and the clean energy space, and then the impact capital and social innovation space, which kind of overlaps a lot of those other areas.

Andy Molinsky: [00:03:17] So, give us a sense of like in the last week, I don't know, some at some of the meetings or things you've done. You don't have to tell specific names, but just like just to give us a flavor.

Benjamin Stone: [00:03:28] Sure. So, I brought in a great new client that I'm really excited about. This is a perfect example. They're called Clarity. And they're a startup from the University of Massachusetts. A woman engineer came up with this technology to design, test, develop, innovative water purification devices, which can be used both domestically in the US, but, also, she's thinking about implementing it internationally for areas that really have some scarce water supplies. So, really interesting there. And we help get these types of companies off the ground. So, how do you form the company? How do you want to structure the equity allocation, and control, and the economics when you're starting, which is really, really important to avoid complications and miscommunications down the road?

Benjamin Stone: [00:04:14] I, also, this past week, worked on a venture capital finance for a startup and so forth. We have solar companies and asset management firms. And then, one of my favorite clients that I've had for a long time called Skillist, they're a perfect example of what we call social enterprise. And they're job application platform that's making it easier for employers and job seekers to connect by bringing skills to the center of the process rather than just credential. So, really evening the playing field, particularly for young professionals and people who have, perhaps, less than a four-year college degree to enter the workforce.

Benjamin Stone: [00:04:51] So, really exciting stuff. My favorite part about this job and why I came back to the law firm world is the opportunity to meet, and engage, and support these incredible entrepreneurs who are putting it all on the line. I'd say the vast majority of them are putting it all in the line, not just to make profits, which is incredibly important, but also to have a positive impact on the world. And that's really inspiring, and it's an honor to be able to help them in any way that I can.

Andy Molinsky: [00:05:15] That's really interesting. I have to ask just because it went through my mind. Maybe it goes through other people's minds, especially young people who might be considering being an entrepreneur. "Gosh, I'd love to hire someone like Ben at Mintz, a big law firm, to do this critical work to get my startup off the ground. I don't have much money." How do you -- how do people-

Benjamin Stone: [00:05:34] Sure.

Andy Molinsky: [00:05:34] How do little, tiny companies afford someone like you guys to help them?

Benjamin Stone: [00:05:41] Yeah, that's a great question. So, two things. One is that for startups that we think are really promising, and then have a bright future, we will often defer a few years until their first or second financing until they generate a certain amount of revenue. So, that's what allows us to really get their feet on the ground and on solid ground before those payment start having to come in. And then, the second thing is that we collaborate a lot with smaller law firms. So, Mintz is a large law firm. And so, sometimes, what we'll do is work with a small law firm who can do some of the day-to-day nuts and bolts for a startup. And then, we come in when things get more complex or if there's a big financing that we need to address. So, that's the way that we help people get in the door.

Andy Molinsky: [00:06:28] Very interesting. Okay. So, let's rewind back to college. You went to Washington University in St. Louis.

Benjamin Stone: [00:06:36] [Yeah, I'm about to.]

Andy Molinsky: [00:06:36] Right. So, are we all. So, what did you major in? You mentioned you went to law school. Sort of bring us through your senior year into law school. And then, from there, and we can go on.

Benjamin Stone: [00:06:49] Sure. So, senior year, one of the best years ever, that I'm sure many people can say that about their senior year, but also really thinking about what I was going to do in the future. And I had a sense that I wanted to go to law school. I majored in English, and then also minored in Photography. And, in fact, spent most of my time on the photography part of it. Always really into design and that type of thing.

Benjamin Stone: [00:07:11] And I would say this as an aside, like that often was helpful based on what you majored in for the rest of your career, but I'd say it's largely irrelevant, and the college is a good opportunity to really dig in on some things that you may not have the opportunity to do later in life. So, that's just one piece of advice.

Benjamin Stone: [00:07:32] So, I spent a year out of college as a manuscript editor for the University of Chicago Press, The Astrophysical Journal, which sounds bizarre since I had no experience in that, but I was basically checking that there was a noun and verb and each sentence. But it got me a year of experience really looking at significant details, which was a helpful experience. And then, thought I would go to law school and kind of go from there. I went to law school, not necessarily because I knew I wanted to be a practicing lawyer, but because I thought that the idea of law school in and of itself would be incredibly valuable both in terms of the analytical thinking, and writing, and communication. And I love law school, and I have no regrets whatsoever. Even if I hadn't gone to practice law at all, I think it was a great experience and worth it.

Andy Molinsky: [00:08:20] And then, from law school, it sounds like you chose to do something a little bit avant-garde. Were your friends going onto more traditional paths, and you chose a different one, or tell us what happened from there.

Benjamin Stone: [00:08:35] Yeah, it's a great question. So, I also chose the traditional path out of law school. So, for four years out of law school, I was a litigator at a major international law firm in New York City, defending big financial institutions and insurance companies, and doing some white-collar defense, really doing your traditional big law experience. And I loved it. The firm I was at was terrific. I really liked being a litigator. It fit, I think, my strengths and my passions quite well. Really, being persuasive, being a crisp writer, really dipping into complex situations, and becoming an expert very quickly. So, I really loved it. And I was pursuing that path.

Benjamin Stone: [00:09:16] And then, what happened was about four years into that in approximately 2007, a very close friend of mine from college came to me. And he had grown up often on in Africa because his dad was an oil executive. And he'd always seen the entrepreneurial spirit of African women artisans, but the fact that they were held back by lack of access to markets and education. So, he also took the safe path originally, and he was a practicing lawyer down in DC.

Benjamin Stone: [00:09:41] He did not enjoy it as much as I do then, and came to me and said, "Listen, Ben. I'm going to quit my job. I want to start a company. This new term called a social enterprise, that was then kind of starting to pop up around 2007. And filling in this market gap for these women by helping them access, not just markets, but business education, technology education, literacy education." And I said, "Man, that sounds incredible." I'd always wanted to -- I always had kind of an entrepreneurial spirit, I would say, and seemed like a great opportunity. So, I said, "I'm not going to quit my job, but I will help out."

Benjamin Stone: [00:10:15] And so, I started helping him get this company off the ground. I convinced my law firm at the time to allow me to take any client, a pro bono client, so I was able to allocate more time to it, approximately 10 p.m. to 3 a.m. every night after I got off my real job. And then, it snowballed. So, in the summer of 2008, I went to Rwanda for the first time. I've never actually been to Africa before. And that's where we decided to start the company. And I went there with my buddy to set up a training program portion of the social enterprise. And I'd say, literally, within five minutes of setting foot on the ground, I said, "Oh, crap. This is what I have to do." Like it just became completely clear to me that life's short, and I had to take this opportunity that would perhaps never come along again. And I saw the power of this business model. And most importantly, I met the women with whom we partnered, and that was the kicker for me.

Benjamin Stone: [00:11:09] So, I went back to the law firm that summer, and I said, "Listen, I'm going to take a leave of absence, indefinite. I'm probably going to going to bankrupt myself most likely and spend everything I've saved for the last four years. (A), is there anything you could do to help me out? And (B), if I decide I want to come back, is that something that you'd be cool with?" And they came back to me about a week later, and they said. "Listen, we've got a counteroffer. What do you do this full time for a year. You can stay on our health insurance, and we'll pay you a small portion of your salary." And I said, "Okay, that sounds pretty awesome."

Benjamin Stone: [00:11:39] And then, to make a long story short, it snowballed. So, we started really getting it off the ground quickly. Harvard Business School followed us around and did a case study on us. We brokered major partnerships with Goldman Sachs, other main major firm clients. So, the firm, Orrick, actually ended up paying me for four years to run Indego Africa full time. And it was something I never would've been able to do before. So, that, in short, got me off on a very different path I never expected. So, I spent four years as a litigator, and then four years starting and running a very scrappy but sophisticated social enterprise and fashion company.

Andy Molinsky: [00:12:19] Wow, interesting. And then, from there, you didn't directly go to Mintz, right? You did some other things?

Benjamin Stone: [00:12:25] Yeah. So, this was an interesting point in my career where after four years, I was (A), really burned out; (B), realized that I probably couldn't live off of Orrick's generosity and perpetuity. And so, I spent some time hiring a woman to take over for me as CEO. She was at Merrill Lynch for 25 years as an investment banker and just a real dynamo. So, she shadowed me for a year until she took over as CEO. So, the company was and still is at incredible hands.

Benjamin Stone: [00:12:54] And then, I started thinking about what I wanted to do. And I didn't have a lot of templates at that point having, like I said, been a litigator and then a social entrepreneur, but two somewhat different things. And then, it just became real serendipity where I was just talking to various friends. And someone at American Express told me that they were starting, technically, a task force to run programs for entrepreneurs across the United States with a focus on creating entrepreneurial ecosystems focused on scale of culture rather than just startup culture, with the premise that anyone can start a company. It's when you build and scale a company is the real challenge, which I always deal with.

Benjamin Stone: [00:13:35] So, I did that for about two years. It just seemed like a no brainer, like, "Why wouldn't I try to do this to see what it's like and to work at a big corporation?" It wasn't that you are in a job at all. It was more marketing, and programs, and leadership, and management. And it was amazing. We did some amazing things. We launched the program in Milwaukee with the governor and the mayor.

Benjamin Stone: [00:13:55] But I did miss practicing law, and I missed kind of some of the nuts and bolts nerdiness of it, which I always liked. And so, at that point, about two years in, I put my dealers out again into the world. And a partner at Orrick was then on the board of an impact investing firm, and he told me they needed someone to come in in a hybrid role, both in the leadership as managing director, but also general counsel to manage a lot of their growing legal needs. And so, that's what I did next for almost four years. A really interesting company, $60-million portfolio, making loans to financial institutions, and small-and-growing businesses in 35 different countries around the world, across four continents, to really help these companies, those types of companies better address challenges regarding financial inclusion, clean energy, and what I like to call smart agriculture. So, that was a great opportunity as well.

Benjamin Stone: [00:14:55] And then, finally convinced my wife to move to Boston. She's from New York. So, that was one of the larger accomplishments that I've had in my life. We're quite happy here. And at that point, I said, "All right. My career has taken a very serendipitous turn. I've taken advantage of opportunities that were put in front of me. Now, I want to be a little bit more deliberate. I'm turning 40. I've got 30 more years of my career left. What can I do now that's going to provide a nice foundation, and something that I could perhaps do for quite a while?"

Benjamin Stone: [00:15:23] And I did a lot of soul searching, and had a lot of conversations, and came back with this idea that I really like practicing law. And because of the experiences that I've had, it made a lot of sense for me to go back to a law firm, but in the corporate space, and really work with startups, who are having a positive impact on the world because that is matching my experience and passion. And two years in, I'm having a great time and have no regrets.

Andy Molinsky: [00:15:47] Really interesting. And, I think, in my view, you tell the story. Like when you tell the story, it makes a lot of sense retrospectively.

Benjamin Stone: [00:15:56] Exactly.

Andy Molinsky: [00:15:57] But I imagine prospectively as you're living it, did your career make sense to you along the way in sort of a cohesive fashion in the same way that it sounds now? Tell us about what it was like, sort of, just in general, kind of living forward.

Benjamin Stone: [00:16:16] Sure. I've thought about this a lot. And my conclusion is that I think one misconception people have about careers, particularly when you're starting your career, is that each step is like the end all and be all, and that if you don't get it right, and it's not perfect that that's going to cause you some real challenges down the road. And I would say that that's not necessarily true. In fact, I think that allowing yourself to not put so much pressure on yourself. To think that I think is invigorating, which is that make the best decision you can based on the opportunities in front of you. Always be looking to gain skills. I think that's the most important thing is no matter what you do, make sure that you're learning new skills along the way because that's really going to help propel you to other things.

Benjamin Stone: [00:17:07] But don't worry so much about how it kind of unfolds in the big picture because it's really impossible to predict. Jobs are all about timing, and who you know, and what's happening at that particular time. And there's never going to be a perfect job as well. And I think it's, in many ways, going with the flow, but with an overall perspective and objective of where you want to be at any given time, but not necessarily, "I need to be in X place 20 years from now." I think that if you if you have that, great. But if you don't, don't sweat it, I would say.

Andy Molinsky: [00:17:40] How about in college? You mentioned skills. You also mentioned that you majored in English and Photography, I'm pretty sure you said. Now, I imagine, and you even talked about some of the skills that are involved in those disciplines, like attention to detail, and writing effectively. And so, we could probably think of others. How do you think about college in terms of preparing you professionally, even if it's not a traditional way of preparing you professionally?

Benjamin Stone: [00:18:11] Yeah. I think college is all about, in many ways, this is a little bit higher level, but I think coming to an understanding of who you are and who you want to be. And that's a little bit different than gaining those hard skills, which I think are better addressed post-college. To me, it's about exploring what you want to do, and starting to chip away at some things that are going to position you well in the future.

Benjamin Stone: [00:18:36] So, for me, the English major was about details and writing. But I'd say the most important part was about storytelling. And I think people underestimate the power of storytelling in basically any job because you really need to be able to persuade people. You need to be able to keep their attention. You need to be able to articulate direction in a way that people are going to be able to accurately follow it. And I think all of those skills that I gained being an English major, I think, were critical and still critical to this day.

Benjamin Stone: [00:19:08] But, otherwise, I think it's just gaining confidence in yourself. It wasn't really until senior year when I started to understand like, "Wow, if I apply myself, which I frankly did sporadically up until that point, I can have some success here." And that was a springboard for me really was senior year when it started to occur to me that I could do some cool things if I put my mind to it.

Andy Molinsky: [00:19:32] It sounds like one of the biggest impacts in your career was that conversation with your friends who said, "Hey, I'm starting this thing up in Africa. Want to join me?" That's a network. Would you call that -- I mean, it's a friend, but would you call that a network? And are those types of things that one builds in college? How do you think about that?

Benjamin Stone: [00:19:52] Oh, absolutely. And that's the other thing I always talk about is the power and importance of networks. And networks does not mean necessarily who you meet at that conference last week. The best networks are the ones that are built with strong friends, and acquaintances, and people who you've developed real personal relationships with, not just necessarily transactional relationships with.

Benjamin Stone: [00:20:19] So, my college friends are still really important to me - really, really important to me from a personal perspective but also professional, both from an advice and connection. People who I spent time within New York City training in Chinatown Table Tennis Club. That's how I met, for instance, the now founder of Kickstarter, but that was before he even started Kickstarter. And the point about networks is you never know what people are going to do, and you never know how your life is going to intersect with those people perhaps 20 years down the line.

Benjamin Stone: [00:20:51] So, I think, it's really important for young professionals coming out of college to (A), realize that networking means a lot of different things, and it's critically important to your career. And, also, to really organize yourself. And that's perhaps one overlooked point is that I'm lucky that I started organizing my network early on because, now, I have an incredible spreadsheet of basically everyone I've ever met with a little information about each person. And that really allows me to tap into my network in a way that I don't think I would have been able to do if I was just not keeping track. So, I'd say the earlier you can start that, the better, and you'll be happy that you did.

Andy Molinsky: [00:21:29] This keeps kicking around in my mind. I have to ask you. I imagine you didn't major in English because you wanted to develop storytelling skills for your future corporate career. I mean, that's a sense-making about the fact that you majored in English in the, sort of, almost inadvertent great skills you developed. But what drew you to that in the first place?

Benjamin Stone: [00:21:54] It's great. Yeah, I totally agree. Because I enjoyed it. I mean, there's no more complicated answer. I love reading and writing, and I still do. And I loved photography, and I still do; although, I don't do it much anymore other than taking photos of my kids, but that's it. That's as far as my thinking went at that point for better or worse. I, perhaps, could have thought it through a little bit more, but I have no regrets. I think it was the right thing to do.

Andy Molinsky: [00:22:21] No. And I don't even imply that it's something to regret. I actually think it's an interesting thing. It's an interesting thing that you followed your interests that we're not -- like I can imagine like a parent. So, you're a parent. I'm a parent too. Imagine that your kid says, "I want to go to college. I want to major in English and Photography. And my first job's going to be editing an Astrophysics Journal in Chicago. Am I geared up for a fantastic career?"

Benjamin Stone: [00:22:50] Yeah. I mean, it's a great point. I, perhaps, would have something. Maybe my advice would be different in that stage of my life. But I think it comes back to playing the long game, which is that you do need to be taking steps of the young professional college student to prepare yourself through the real world in your career. But I think on the other hand, you're only going to be in college once. You're only going to be young once as far as I know. So, take advantage of it and do what you love. There's going to be plenty of time down the road to do things that you perhaps don't love as much. So, take advantage of those opportunities.

Andy Molinsky: [00:23:29] Right. No, I agree with you too. One last question for you, and this is a little out of left field, but I'm curious. You seem like a super productive guy. Can you share any productivity tips with us? Anything you do? I mean, it could be really anything. Do you have any little productivity secrets?

Benjamin Stone: [00:23:48] Wow. Well, I was off coffee for 10 years. And then, I had to go back. I had no choice. That's critical. I think, one tip I would have is this idea of frontloading things. I think that if I'm looking across my week, even if the latter half of my week seems light, I will still really, really work hard at the beginning of the week, and front load everything that I think I have to do with the expectation that 12 to a hundred new things will pop up by the time I get to that second half of the week. And inevitably, I'm always happy I did that, even though it takes a little extra effort and discipline to do that because that's how life works. Life, you can't predict pretty much anything. And so, I try not to leave things, even if I think I have time to do them in the future.

Andy Molinsky: [00:24:42] Excellent tip. So, we're at the end of our chat. I wanted to thank you so much for coming on and being our guest. If listeners are interested in learning more about you or any of the companies you're involved in, is there anywhere we can direct them?

Benjamin Stone: [00:25:00] Sure, absolutely. And I welcome all notes, questions, complaints, whatever. My email address is bdstone@mintz.com. So, for Benjamin Daniel, BD Stone. And Andy, I'll leave you with one thought that I always have. And this has been clarified to me as I've had kids is, to me, there are five kind of principles that anyone can really focus in on that are controllable by any person. And I think it's related to careers, but also perhaps life, which is be bold, be kind, be curious, be diligent, and be grateful. And I think, I try to follow those principles as much as possible, and I find that things worked out pretty well when I do.

Andy Molinsky: [00:25:47] Interesting. I guess, one question I have, and I know we're sort of at the end, but I still want to, just a quick follow-up on that. How do you keep those top of mind?

Benjamin Stone: [00:26:01] It's a great question. Any strategy that works. I write it down sometimes. I think about things that I'm doing and how those principles can apply sometimes on a daily basis, sometimes not. But I think just thinking about them enough where they are kind of ingrained, and you're just an automatic in many ways, or the default mode for what you need to do. So, bold is if I'm coming against the decision where I can say I can really press this issue, and ask for X, or I cannot, I'll typically say, "Well, what's the bold thing to do?" Or kind is an easy one. That's an easy default is just be kind to everyone. It always comes back in a positive way. And if you're not kind, it's inevitably coming back in a negative way, even if you don't think it will.

Benjamin Stone: [00:26:52] Again, like curious is another example. I think that's something that's, perhaps, even the most important principle is that if you're curious, you're always looking to learn, you're always looking to improve, you're always looking to meet new people and gain new skills. And I think, to me, that's been the main driver of my career. And I haven't necessarily had an end goal, but my philosophy, as long as I'm curious, and digging into new things every day, and feeling invigorated that way, I could do this forever. And that's what's exciting.

Andy Molinsky: [00:27:27] That's inspiring. And I think that the listeners who are with us here are going to be inspired too. So, thank you so much. This is been great. And we know how to reach you if we need to reach you. And thanks again.

Benjamin Stone: [00:27:41] Thank you, Andy. It's a real pleasure. I appreciate it.

Andy Molinsky: [00:27:47] Thank you for listening to From the Dorm Room to the Board Room. If you're interested in learning more about the work that I do in helping people step outside their comfort zones and transition successfully into the professional world, please visit my website, www.andymolinsky.com. That's A-N-D-Y-M-O-L-I-N-S-K-Y dot com. And also feel free to email me directly at andy@andymolinsky.com with any feedback or ideas for guests for feature podcasts.

Andy Molinsky: [00:28:18] This podcast is brought to you by Brandeis University's International Business School. By teaching rigorous business, finance, and economics, connecting students to best practices and immersing them in international experiences, Brandeis International Business School prepares exceptional individuals from around the globe to become principled professionals in companies and public institutions worldwide. Thank you so much for listening.