Ronit Avni: [00:00:00] Luckily, at the university level, people start to find themselves, and they find their voice. And those that have that inner drive there, they allow it to manifest. And so, we're seeing incredibly driven and proactive students.

Andy Molinsky: [00:00:18] Welcome to From the Dorm Room to the Board Room, a podcast where we provide insights, tips, and inspiration for college students and young professionals, so they can make a really successful transition from college life to the professional world and beyond.

Andy Molinsky: [00:00:36] My name is Andy Molinsky, and I'm your host. I am also a Professor of Organizational Behavior and International Management at Brandeis University's International Business School, where we record and produce this podcast.

Andy Molinsky: [00:00:55] Okay. So, our guest today is Ronit Avni, who is a tech and media entrepreneur and Peabody Award-winning producer. She was named a DC Power Woman in Tech and is the founder and CEO of Localized, which I think we'll talk a bit about today, a career tech platform that connects educated talent in emerging markets with global businesses, drawing on diaspora networks at scale. Super interesting. And this is how, actually, we met each other because I was very into her organization.

Andy Molinsky: [00:01:29] Previously, Ronit founded and led the media organization, Just Vision. Her work has won dozens of prizes, including the PUMA Creative Impact Award. She was named a Young Global Leader of the World Economic Forum, a Halcyon Fellow, a Trailblazer Award recipient from the National Council for Research on Women. Ronit sits on the jury of the Global Teacher Prize as well. She was born in Montreal, began her career at witness.org, and is on the Witness Advisory Council. Ronit, thank you so much for being with us.

Ronit Avni: [00:02:05] Thanks for having me, Andy.

Andy Molinsky: [00:02:07] So, tell us about what you're doing now. Tell us about Localized. I think it's really interesting what you're creating. And then, we'll kind of go backwards, and learn about your career, and how you got from point A to point B.

Ronit Avni: [00:02:19] Sure. So, Localized, as you mentioned, is a talent tech platform. What that means is we're focused on connecting companies that are looking to hire in emerging markets, places like the Middle East, and North Africa, or India to talent. And the way that we do that is we partner with universities in those markets whose schools may not have career services infrastructure, or they may not have alumni services infrastructure, or they may not have access to companies that are entering those markets. And we connect the companies to the schools, so that they can access the talent, the students. And we make sure that the students have access both to potential employers but, also, to industry insiders who can guide them. 

Ronit Avni: [00:03:05] And the way that we do that is we tap into diaspora networks. So, networks of Indians around the world, or Tunisians around the world, Egyptians or Jordanians around the world, who are working in the fields of the future - fields like Medtech, Ed Tech, A.I., Robotics, Renewables, FinTech, et cetera, so that the students are able to ask questions about the kinds of job openings that are out there in their language from somebody who understands both where they're coming from literally and, also, where they want to go professionally.

Andy Molinsky: [00:03:37] Great. And by the way, I probably should've told you that we have a lot of international listeners. You might get hit up. You might find some interesting people from our listeners. So, let's rewind back to college. So, I imagine you had a fully fleshed this organization out in college and were just waiting to launch it. Is that right?

Ronit Avni: [00:03:58] A hundred percent not. A hundred percent no. That was not the case at all. So, I had a -- I guess, a lot of people had careers that were not necessarily ones that they envisioned. I had come to college after studying Professional Theater Studies in Montreal. I had done a three-year professional certificate program, kind of the way that you would if you were going into something like nursing or any kind of field where you don't necessarily need a BA. So, I studied Theater Directing and Montreal, went back to school, thought I was going to pursue a career in Theater Directing, and got hooked by Political Science. And so, I ended up majoring in Political Science.

Ronit Avni: [00:04:38] And over the course of that period of time, I started to think about how I could fuse my interests in a way that was creative and fulfilling and landed on the idea of combining human rights work with documentary filmmaking. And this was at a time that was pre-digital, right. So, we didn't have digital cameras, or we didn't have video online, I should say. We were just moving from analog to digital.

Ronit Avni: [00:05:05] And everybody laughed at me when I said that I wanted to do that, except a neighbor's nephew in Montreal who said, "Hey, have you heard about this organization called Witness?" And I looked it up. And it turned out, at the time, there were only a couple of entities putting video online. One was the porn industry. That was not of interest to me. And the other was Witness. And Witness was a human rights organization that was equipping people around the world to video cameras and working with them to train them to document abuses, and then work strategically to use the footage that was captured to try to effect a legislative or policy change.

Andy Molinsky: [00:05:44] Really interesting. And so, where did you go to college?

Ronit Avni: [00:05:48] I went to Vassar.

Andy Molinsky: [00:05:50] Okay. And you had done theater in Montreal, and then moved to Vassar. That's sort of an interesting change. Just quickly, how did you find Vassar or how did Vassar find you?

Ronit Avni: [00:06:01] Sure. Yeah. I had never heard of Vassar growing up. In Montreal, you don't really think you're going to move to the States because it's so expensive in terms of the universities. It happened that a lot of the professors that I had doing the certificate program -- it's called CEGEP degree in Montreal. There's a bit of a different educational system. So, high school ends in grade 11. Then, you can either do a two-year pre-university program or a three-year professional program. I did the three-year program. And a lot of my professors were going to be professors at universities like McGill. So, if I stayed in Montreal, I felt it would have been duplicative. I would have been taking similar courses from the same people.

Ronit Avni: [00:06:40] And so, I started to look around to see if I could find a school that had financial aid for Canadians and that was of interest. And a friend of -- my sister's very good friend had gone to Vassar, and it turns out that, at the time, it was one of only four universities that gave financial aid to Canadians in a generous way, the way that it gave it to Americans. So, I had actually applied to a whole slew of schools, got into a bunch of them, schools like Barnard and others, but there was no financial aid. And that wasn't a possibility for my family.

Andy Molinsky: [00:07:12] Got it. And, by the way, I have to mention, I've already heard a sister's friend, a neighbor. It sounds like you -- and it's not surprising to me that you've created an organization that relies on networks, right. This maybe is kind of baked into your life.

Ronit Avni: [00:07:27] Yes, yes. So, I have grown up with some great role models who know how to tap into people's potential and ask for help. If you can't do something, figure out who can do that. My mother was actually very skilled and is very skilled at that. If she can't do it, she finds somebody who can.

Andy Molinsky: [00:07:45] So, all right. So, you're at Vassar, you're at your last year of college, and you did tell us that you found Witness and were sort of captivated by this idea of video online. Can you just actually bring us back to your last year at Vassar though? What were your thoughts about career? Do you remember what that was like and where that brought you?

Ronit Avni: [00:08:09] Yeah. Yeah, shockingly, I do actually remember. So, there were a couple of organizations on my radar. Witness was definitely at the top. And there was no organization like it at the time. It was founded by musician, Peter Gabriel. It had artists involved. It had techies involved. It had activists involved. And I should say, my mom's a musician, and my dad's an engineer. So, fusing left brain and right brain is something that I tend to look for because I'm somebody that uses both sides. And so, Witness was really exciting to me. I applied. At the time, they were still a project of what was then called The Lawyers Committee for Human Rights. Now, called Human Rights First. And I applied. I applied to a number of organizations. I had done some internships.

Ronit Avni: [00:08:54] So, one of the things that helped me a lot was that the summer before my senior year, I had gotten a fellowship to intern at a human rights organization overseas. And that was very helpful because it enabled me to, first of all, demonstrate that I was being proactive. I didn't do it to demonstrate I was being proactive, but I think, in hindsight, from an employer's perspective, I was very proactive about seeking out funding, seeking out that fellowship, and was doing a lot of the work that Witness was doing in the field.

Ronit Avni: [00:09:25] And so, I applied. There was no job opening at Witness that I knew of. And so, I applied where I thought I was doing the right thing by applying for an internship. And I basically wrote to them and said, "Hey, it doesn't look like you're hiring at the moment. Do you have any internships? I would love to take one. I can't afford to work for free. So, I'd be happy to find a job in New York, and then volunteer for you," because we weren't in a financial situation where I could just intern living in New York City. And they wrote me back. And at first, it was somewhat of a crisp response where they basically said, "No, we have no internships," and something along the lines of, "And you're late to email us."

Ronit Avni: [00:10:11] But then, a few days later or maybe a week later, I got another e-mail that said, "Actually, we have a job opening. Why don't you come in for an interview?" And I think the first lesson for me just entering the professional world there is, number one, you never know what's going on within a company or an organization. So, just because something's not posted as an opening doesn't mean that an organization or company isn't thinking about their next hires or isn't dealing internally with a transition.

Ronit Avni: [00:10:38] And the second thing was thank goodness that my responses were very polite and amicable, even in rejection, because when they first said, "No, we have no no position. And by the way, you're late," I responded in a very positive, and appreciative, and perhaps Canadian style, polite manner. And so, I didn't burn a bridge there. And so, they were able to then come back and invite me to come in for the interview.

Andy Molinsky: [00:11:03] Interesting story. So, I've got a bunch of questions for you about, sort of, you've got such interesting experience in so many different areas, sort of, kind of, leveraging your wisdom. But before that, can you just tell us a little bit about, was there any sort of path towards that early work at Witness to what you now have done in terms of starting up your most recent company, Localized?

Ronit Avni: [00:11:26] Yeah. So, I would say that what I got hooked on at Witness was the innovative use of technology and media for social change and, also, the international dimension of it. So, at Witness, when I started, we were a project, and we were only three people. Now, the organization is multiples of that, much, much, much larger, its own independent organization. And so, I was there at a very nascent and critical juncture both to see what it took because, as at the time, the executive director, Gillian Caldwell, made the case to spin off the project into an independent entity, and then had to build it. And I watched that process happen.

Ronit Avni: [00:12:06] And so, I learned a lot both in terms of the systems of how you actually operationalize and grow something, but I also really got hooked on -- I worked with diaspora communities, or immigrant, or expat communities from all over the world. I worked with professionals from all over the world. We were also deploying technology. And really, it's funny because some of the things that we were exploring at the time at Witness have not yet fully come to fruition today in terms of what we can do in terms of some of the video projections and video installations in places like campuses and interactivity.

Ronit Avni: [00:12:44] There was a lot of creative thinking going on in that realm. And Witness was -- although that's not what we were doing, we were a hub. And so, we had access to a really broad range of innovative institutes, thinkers, universities that we partnered with. I, to this day, maintain friendships with some of the university students who were some masters and PhD students who either worked with us, or interned for us, or volunteered for us.

Ronit Avni: [00:13:09] So, I got exposure to many of the worlds that I'm working with today in that first job. And so, I know in the spirit of this podcast, I was thinking about the fact that your first job, in some ways, doesn't matter at all and, in some ways, it matters a whole lot because what you do at first may not be indicative of where you end up much later, but it's a very formative time. And so, it's a time to either learn systems, or either to build networks, or to explore discipline. And I had the good fortune of being able to do all three. Witness was a highly networked organization, very much at the cutting edge and at the intersection of a variety of fields. So, I'm quite grateful for that as an entry point into this world.

Andy Molinsky: [00:13:55] It sounds like networking is a big part of your story both in terms of kind of creating opportunities for yourself and also for what you've ultimately built, the organization that you've ultimately built. Can you just say a word about how networking works? Obviously, we know it's useful, but like what do you literally do? Like how do you network if you were teaching someone the basics?

Ronit Avni: [00:14:18] Yeah. Actually, on Localized, we have what we call a channel, kind of like a Slack channel, around this question of leveraging networks. So, I'll say two things. One thing about Localized is, in a way, it's the resource I wished I had had as a college student. So, people tend to build things or make films for themselves, the stories they wish they had known, the systems they wished that they had had in place. So, as robust as my network was, it had a lot of holes in it. And I wasn't exposed. There were so many fields that I didn't even know what they meant, I didn't even know they were options, or if I knew what they were, I had a very narrow view of what they were, and perhaps was dismissive that they would be uninteresting as fields, not fully appreciating the dynamism or creativity of those worlds.

Ronit Avni: [00:15:03] So, I think one of the things that I love about what Localized does is we expose students to really wide range of job opportunities, and sectors, and ways to spend your time. We have an upcoming webinar in a number of weeks with an expert who started out his career in engineering. And, now, he specializes in algorithmic trading. And so, the conversation is going to be, what the hell is algorithmic trading? What is that? And is that a career? And what does that mean? Just to keep an open mind around all those fields.

Ronit Avni: [00:15:36] In terms of leveraging networks, the most important principles around networking is that at their heart, they're not transactional, they're relational. So, you're establishing relationships with people. You're trying to learn. You're trying to be generous where you can. You're trying to be polite and respectful of people's time. So, if you're a student, some of the best networkers are those that may reach out and say, "Hey, Ronit," or "Hey, Whoever. I see that you're working on X. I am looking to learn more about this field. I don't want to take up too much of your time. Could we jump on a 15-minute call, or could we jump on a 30-minute call? Can I take you out for coffee when I'm in town next?" or something along those lines where you're really putting yourselves in the shoes of the person with whom you're networking. So, I think, number one, is try to see it from their vantage point because chances are, they're getting a lot of requests.

Ronit Avni: [00:16:34] In a funny way, Localized was designed to enable our experts who might be getting pinged daily from friends and relatives of friends to be able to share their expertise in a place where they can share it once, and then you can absorb all that they have to share, and then you can interact with them only once you've absorbed the fundamentals of their perspective on the topic. So, we're trying to solve for the -- we have been solving for this request fatigue that, sometimes, happens on the part of the people that you might be asking to sit down for coffee or to have a conversation with.

Ronit Avni: [00:17:10] So, I would say, number one, a clear ask. Number two, do your homework. So, you want to make sure you look them up. Look them up on LinkedIn, look them up if there's an organization or company page, dig in a little bit, take some notes. It's not enough that you just check that LinkedIn page. Do a little bit of homework, so that they don't have to run through the basics with you. And then, you want to go in with an ask, a clear ask. And that ask could be something as simple as, "I don't know what algorithmic trading is. I'd love to learn," or it might be, "I'd love to volunteer for your organization," or it might be, "If I were to apply for a job at a company like yours, what are three things that I should --what three skills do you think I would need?" or something along those lines?

Ronit Avni: [00:17:56] And then, once you have that conversation, make sure to take notes, bring a pen or some way to capture that information. And then, the most important is the follow up, which is the thank you afterwards or the, "May I keep in touch?" or "Can I keep you updated?" or "May I circle back to you?" And then, do it. The people that actually keep a list or database and follow up with people, that becomes critical.

Andy Molinsky: [00:18:20] Interesting. Really, you have some good concrete tips there. So, misconceptions. What misconceptions do you think young people, college students have when entering the workplace?

Ronit Avni: [00:18:33] One misconception is that you're going to be told exactly what you need to do. You're going to get to your job, and like university where you get the assignment, they tell you what book, what author, what publisher, what date. They might even tell you what bookstore, where you can buy the book, or where you can download it. There is, sometimes, an expectation that you're going to be given everything laid out for you. And if you just check those boxes and do what's asked, you're doing the job. And if you don't hear anything negative, then all is well; when, in fact, the highest performers are the ones that they come in, they ask a lot of questions. Who should I sit down with my first week? Who might I get to know within the organization? And they do a lot of listening. They take notes. They follow through. But after a few weeks of getting the hang of things and operating with humility, they start to notice areas that they could help improve systems or content, and they and they proactively dive.

Ronit Avni: [00:19:35] So, you want to make sure that you're not doing something that's duplicative, and you want to make sure that you're not doing something that has been tried and failed. But beyond that, I think the best performers are the ones that don't just wait to be told. They actually jump in, and they offer to add value, and they offer to demonstrate how they can add value. And the more they do that, the more their peers both trust them, rely on them, turn to them, and you might be able to craft a whole new role on the basis of doing that.

Andy Molinsky: [00:20:04] Interesting. And as you're talking, I think to myself, there, probably, are a lot of cultural differences that impact people's abilities to do that. So, especially for people in your organization who are localized and who are from cultures where there maybe was a greater power distance in their culture, where they grew up, where they were really taught to speak only when spoken to, and follow directions, and really wait until a boss or an authority figure tells them what to do. But you're talking about assertiveness and initiative. How do those two things mesh in your experience?

Ronit Avni: [00:20:40] I think it's absolutely the case that there are some places that are more deferential to authority culturally or, at least, in the K12 learning space. We hear this all the time that in the K12 learning space, you have schooling in some places that is much more about rote learning. It's much more about just spitting out whatever the authority figure tells you to say. Luckily, at the university level, people start to find themselves, and they find their voice. And those that have that inner drive, they allow it to manifest.

Ronit Avni: [00:21:15] And so, we're seeing incredibly driven and proactive students, but, absolutely, there is an element to that. Americans tend to be extremely non-deferential to age, to the elderly for good and for ill. I would say, Canada, a little less so. And I remember studying theater that in Canada, if you're studying something like Shakespeare, it's very deferential to the tradition of how you do things. Almost the apprenticeship model, there is a way to do things and a way not to do things. When I came to the States, suddenly it was people didn't bother to learn the history. They didn't bother to know these traditions. They just innovated. And somewhere in the middle was probably the optimal space where you have the incredible creativity and the drive, but you also have an understanding of what you are moving away from.

Ronit Avni: [00:22:07] And so, I think that it does vary from place to place, style by style. I think that the big challenge is if you're somebody who just goes in guns blazing to actually do some listening and really have high emotional intelligence, high EQ of listening to what are your colleagues saying, what has been tried, what worked, what didn't. But then, also, for those who don't have a lot of a sense of entitlement in terms of being proactive to feel empowered that just because something has been done a certain way doesn't mean it's the best way to do things. It doesn't mean that it actually was a conscious decision to do it that way. It might have just been a default choice several years back, and then a whole legacy of actions emerged as a result.

Andy Molinsky: [00:22:55] Do you remember anything from college -- well, I guess, I could stop there. Yeah, a big question for me. Do you remember anything from college that really ended up being particularly useful for what you do now? Because you did study Political Science, but then a lot of people say, "Well, what we learned in college wasn't necessarily so helpful later down the road." How about for you?

Ronit Avni: [00:23:20] What I studied in Professional Theater Studies, so in this pre-college, this CEGEP, I studied improv. And I would say that I learned more life lessons and more management lessons through that program than I did in all my years at Vassar. Though I loved Vassar, and it was a wonderful place, improv is amazing. And many people will say this because if you have to get up on stage with other actors, and people are throwing curveballs at you right there, they're throwing out ideas from the audience of things that you need to do. And by the way, I hated improv. It's not like I was especially good at it or loved it. I didn't. I hated it.

Ronit Avni: [00:24:00] But in hindsight, it was probably the most valuable class that I took because there's a principle in improv called accept or some people call it yes and. And the idea of it is that whatever actor, whatever idea is thrown to you from an audience or an actor, it doesn't matter how inane it is. You can't just ignore it, pretend it didn't happen, or say no because, then, the whole thing stops and crashes. So, you have to find some way to integrate that idea, even if you disagree with it, and come up with something better as a result. And those are muscles that need training because, later, for things like brainstorming, for working in teams, for managing crises, those become essential skills. And they are essential skills when we start talking about the future of work.

Ronit Avni: [00:24:49] So, I would say that, actually, the theater training piece was incredibly instructive. I had one voice teacher who used to walk into class, and he would tick off if somebody came in, and they were late, or they had an excuse for not getting the work done, he would tick off and just say, "Don't bore us with your insecurities." And it was harsh, but it was so right. It was so true that people were -- no one was interested in excuses. You either got it done, or you didn't. And if you didn't, you had to get up there and just deal with it. And I think that all of that was incredibly valuable training. I think theater should not just be -- and I'm not dogmatic about this, but I think that things like improv classes are valuable no matter what discipline you're pursuing.

Andy Molinsky: [00:25:35] How about mentoring? You've talked a lot about networking and building relationships. And I guess, mentoring is one step more. Tell us a bit about your experience with mentoring, having had mentors, perhaps being a mentor. Any words of wisdom around this topic?

Ronit Avni: [00:25:53] I think that it's essential. It's essential to think about -- these days, we talk about career community, this idea that you're not just going to have one mentor in your life. There are going to be all kinds of mentors. There are some mentors who are there for a particular stage or a particular challenge you're dealing with. There are some mentors who are helping you to think about your life trajectory and choices. There are other mentors that might be discipline-specific. I'm a big proponent of building out those relationships, even if you don't formally refer to them as a mentor. It can be informal. It's understood. It's implicit and understood.

Ronit Avni: [00:26:31] I've certainly mentored, I would say, at this point, dozens of people. Some where it's incredibly gratifying to see people that I managed, or that I hired, or that I led, and see them going on to lead organizations, to found organizations, to go off and become either filmmakers, or activists, or in the tech space. It's wonderful. So, I would say that keep those people updated, even 5 or 10 years later because there's a lot of -- they're rooting for you. They're really cheering for you. And then, if you're privileged to have those people around you, make sure to pay it forward with other people. That's really the best way to -- the best way to thank a mentor is to succeed for yourself and to, then, help other people.

Andy Molinsky: [00:27:17] How do you find one?

Ronit Avni: [00:27:19] Yeah. Well, so, if you're -- you mean as a college student?

Andy Molinsky: [00:27:23] As a college student or as a young professional. I mean, there's networking, but then there's -- mentoring is a different level of commitment.

Ronit Avni: [00:27:31] So, the funny thing is this. That's a lot of what -- on Localized, a lot of the experts that we bring onto the platform, internally, I know it sounds like jargon, but we call them proximate role models because it's this idea that if you see somebody similar to you who is doing work that you aspire to do, then you can say, "Well, if that person can do it, maybe I can too." And I'll say personally that that worked for me on several occasions where I found out about somebody similar to me going for a fellowship and getting it right. And then, me starting to think, "Hey, what would I do with that fellowship? If I applied, what would that look like?" And then, actually applying for it and getting it. And, actually, that helped me to launch my first organization.

Ronit Avni: [00:28:15] So, I would say look around. Mentors are really important but so are these proximate role models, these people, when you look at them, you think, "Hmm, that person could do that. Maybe I can too." And you don't have to think of them as a mentor necessarily, but sitting down, having a phone call with them, having coffee with them, taking them out for coffee, go for a walk. Some people, you can say, "Hey, how do you commute to work?" I've had mentor sessions where, actually, somebody met me at my office. I said, "If you're up for a walk, you can walk with me as I have a 40-minute walk home. Let's do it." Or I'll go running with people if I'm really busy. So, you can find ways to ask people to have those conversations. But the first thing is to look around and say, "Who's doing something interesting? And then, who's doing something interesting where I could credibly imagine maybe pursuing a path like that and then reaching out?"

Andy Molinsky: [00:29:07] One final question for you. And I know you're very busy and productive person. How about a productivity tip? Anything that you can share with us? And I mean, it really could be anything. It could be something that you do on a daily basis. It could be a tool. You use anything.

Ronit Avni: [00:29:23] Yeah. I would say, what I just mentioned, these walking meetings. Get from point A to point B and make that productive. So, my commutes are productive. I make sure that my commutes, either I'm on a call, I'm taking a walk with somebody, or I'm getting something done that I need to depending upon what mode of transportation I'm taking. So, make sure that your commutes are filled. That would be one.

Ronit Avni: [00:29:49] And then, making sure to block out. I would say calendars are essential. This sounds very obvious, but, I guess, when you're in college, you don't necessarily hear some of this. I live on Google calendar. And I have to block off chunks of time for when I want to get certain things done. If I know I need to do some deep thinking about something, I want to make sure that I've blocked off a morning to be able to do that. And then, I can turn off all notifications during that time in order to dive deep.

Andy Molinsky: [00:30:18] That's a great point. And one of my mentors actually used to make appointments with himself. That's what he called it. So, it's a great tip. Hey, thank you so much for being a guest. If people want to find more about you or your organization, where can they go?

Ronit Avni: [00:30:37] Yes. So, I'm on LinkedIn. So, you can find me there, Ronit Avni. And then, Localized, you can also find me there. So, it's localized.world. And it's L-O-C-A-L-I-Z-E-D. Localized.world. And you can find me there as well. Also, on Twitter, @Ronit_Avni.

Andy Molinsky: [00:30:58] Sounds great. Thanks so much.

Ronit Avni: [00:30:59] Thanks so much, Andy. Take care.

Andy Molinsky: [00:31:02] Thank you for listening to From the Dorm Room to the Board Room. If you're interested in learning more about the work that I do in helping people step outside their comfort zones and transition successfully into the professional world, please visit my website, www.andymolinsky.com. That's A-N-D-Y-M-O-L-I-N-S-K-Y dot com. And, also, feel free to email me directly at andy@andymolinsky.com with any feedback or ideas for guests for future podcasts.

Andy Molinsky: [00:31:33] This podcast is brought to you by Brandeis University's International Business School. By teaching rigorous business, finance, and economics, connecting students to best practices, and immersing them in international experiences, Brandeis International Business School prepares exceptional individuals from around the globe to become principled professionals in companies and public institutions worldwide. Thank you so much for listening.