Dorie Clark: [00:00:00] So,  I think that one of the best things you can do in terms of being successful in business is actually just listening to your customers or listening to your prospective customers and seeing what they want enough to ask you for and start offering because you know that there's going to be a market for it.

Andy Molinsky: [00:00:19] Welcome to From the Dorm Room to the Board Room, a podcast where we provide insights, tips and inspiration for college students and young professionals, so they can make a really successful transition from college life to the professional world and beyond.

Andy Molinsky: [00:00:36] My name is Andy Molinsky, and I'm your host. I'm also a Professor of Organizational Behavior and International Management at Brandeis University's International Business School, where we record and produce this podcast.

Andy Molinsky: [00:00:56] Okay. So, today's guest is Dorie Clark. Dorie is a marketing strategy consultant, a professional speaker, a frequent contributor to the Harvard Business Review. Dorie has been recognized as a branding expert by many places, the Associated Press, Fortune Inc. Magazine. She's the author of three books: Entrepreneurial You, Reinventing You, and Stand Out. Those books have been translated into Russian, Chinese, Arabic, French, Polish, Korean and Thai, for all our non-English speaking listeners.

Andy Molinsky: [00:01:31] Dorie was described by The New York Times as an expert at self-reinvention. This is something we'll talk about a little bit later - self-reinvention, personal branding. She consults and speaks for a range of different clients. At age 14, Dorie entered Mary Baldwin College's program for the exceptionally gifted. And at age 18, she graduated from Smith College. And two years later, received a Master of Theological Studies from Harvard Divinity School. Dorie has a very eclectic and impressive background. And I'm so happy that you could join us today. Thanks, Dorie, for being on.

Dorie Clark: [00:02:11] Hey, Andy. It's so good to speak with you.

Andy Molinsky: [00:02:14] So, tell us what you do now. And I know that you do many things, but give us a snapshot of what your job is like. What's it like to be you professionally right now?

Dorie Clark: [00:02:28] Well, right now, I work for myself. I've been self-employed since 2006. And basically, it's under the rubric of marketing and communications consulting. But I do a lot of things within that. So, I write books, as you mentioned, and travel around and speak about them. I also do executive coaching, and I consult for corporations. I run some online courses, and I also do business school teaching. So, there's a lot of subsidiary activities that I get to do as part of running my own business.

Andy Molinsky: [00:03:08] And when you started this in 2006, did you have it all, sort of, perfectly planned out, and you just, sort of, snapped your fingers and jumped right into it?

Dorie Clark: [00:03:15] Definitely not. And it's, sort of, a trick question because you know the answer, we all kind of stumble into it. Originally, my business did one thing, which was I consulted for organizations, and helped them basically do marketing plans, or, sometimes, I do social media plans for them. But from there, I was able to expand it out. And oftentimes, the way that you can grow your business most effectively is actually to see what your customers are asking for.

Dorie Clark: [00:03:45] And so, people started coming to me sometimes, individuals, and saying, "Hey, you're doing really interesting work. Do you do coaching?" And originally, I said, "No, I didn't," because I didn't. That wasn't the focus of my business. But enough people began to ask me that I realized, at a certain point, "Wow, this is really dumb. If people are asking you for it, they obviously want it. Maybe you should start coaching."

Dorie Clark: [00:04:09] And so, I think that one of the best things you can do in terms of being successful in business is actually just listening to your customers or listening to your prospective customers and seeing what they want enough to ask you for it. And then, start offering it because you know that there's going to be a market for it.

Andy Molinsky: [00:04:25] So, I want to get into how you built your business, but I actually want to rewind first to college or just post-college. So, it doesn't sound like you majored in business. You didn't sort of go off into the world to become a business person. What was it like as you were graduating college? What you were thinking of doing? Sort of tell us a little bit about your career trajectory.

Dorie Clark: [00:04:48] Yeah, I definitely did not major in business. It was not, in fact, an option because I went to liberal arts schools. So, I was a philosophy major as an undergrad. And then, went to Divinity School and got a Master's Degree in Theological Studies. So, I not only didn't have a business degree, I literally never even took a business course. So, all the work that I'm doing now is stuff that I have figured out kind of on my own through doing things. But the arc for it, originally, I thought I was going to have a career in academia. I got my master's degree. And, you know, I was one of those people that always loved school. I always really admired my professors. And I thought, "Well, I'll just be a professor."

Andy Molinsky: [00:05:30] And so I was wanting to go on and get my doctorate, but I ended up getting turned down by all of the doctoral programs that I applied to. So, I had to come up with a different plan. And that was how I kind of indirectly ended up in the business world. I, first, took a job as a journalist, which I figured was kind of the next best thing to academia because there was a lot of reading and writing. And then, I got laid off from that. So, I switched over to working in politics because I had been a political reporter. And then, I, ultimately, took a job on some campaigns, but they kept losing. So, I ran a non-profit for a few years. And then, eventually decided to start my own business, which is what I still do today.

Andy Molinsky: [00:06:13] So you were kind of pivoting in different directions. Do you—I mean, sort of, retrospectively, it sounds like, you know, "Okay. You know, this didn't work out, so I try the next best thing," or "I tried this thing that was similar to that thing." Do you remember what it was like, if you could sort of—I mean, probably, it's been a while, but like what your mindset was like back then when some of these things didn't quite work out?

Dorie Clark: [00:06:34] Yeah. I mean, when I didn't get into the doctoral programs, I was really kind of blindsided because I—it literally never occurred to me that I wouldn't get it. Like I was—I mean, I was aware that I probably wouldn't get in everywhere, but I thought, for sure, I will get into, at least one because my GREs were pretty good, and I had always done on school, but I just didn't. So, it very much had not occurred to me.

Dorie Clark: [00:07:04] So, for about three weeks, I was sort of in mourning. I was just like, "Oh, my God. What am I going to do with myself?" And I did not have a good plan. So, I was pretty depressed. But I eventually realized I had to do something. I had to figure something out. So, I decided that I would get some internships and just get more professional experience because, clearly, I would need to get a job. So, I had done internships before, but I applied to some more, so that I could build up contacts and connections.]

Dorie Clark: [00:07:36] And that was actually a pretty good move because I did two successive internships. One was for a state representative, and the other was for a magazine. And they both led pretty directly into building the connections that I needed to get jobs. I ended up working for a summer after the internship, running the state representative's re-election campaign. And then, using the clips, you know, the, sort of, articles that I had written for the magazine, I was able to leverage that into my first real job in journalism.

Andy Molinsky: [00:08:10] You mentioned that you went to a liberal arts school. I know you didn't major in business, but was there—I guess, thinking back, was there anything from that liberal arts education and training that, sort of, served you well, either things that might be obvious or things that might not be obvious at all?

Dorie Clark: [00:08:29] The best things in terms of immediately transferable professional skills from being at a liberal arts school and having that liberal arts education, I would say there's a few of them. One was purely extracurricular but was really fantastic. And that was that I was part of an improv troop. And it is hard to overstate the benefit that you can get from being an experienced and comfortable public speaker in terms of your professional life. That is something that is just hugely valued and hugely valuable.

Dorie Clark: [00:09:07] And so, I think back to the time in the improv troop as being really critical because, fundamentally, you're up on a stage, you are in the moment, you have to come up with something fast. And if something does not go right or it does not go well, you have to recover and move on. And so, being able to be a nimble public speaker is really valuable. And in fact, today, one of the things that I do is I get paid to do public speaking. So, the improv helped a lot.

Dorie Clark: [00:09:34] The other thing that really is a big deal, especially being a humanities major, is just the ability to write clearly and well and to write logically cohesive arguments. And that's kind of the point of being a philosophy major. And fundamentally, I use that all the time as a journalist. And you have to create tight articles that make sense, so that the reader isn't constantly stopping and saying, "Wait, what was that? Wait, where are you going with this?" You know, it just has to flow. It has to work. And so, it was very valuable for that. And even now, when I'm not a journalist, per se, I still spend a lot of my time writing, whether it's client report, or whether it is a blog, or article, or my books, the principles still apply. And so, having the training of writing a lot, being required to to write arguments that are persuasive, I think has been very helpful.

Andy Molinsky: [00:10:33] Interesting. Okay. So, let's move, I guess, fast. Press fast forward now. Back to 2006. I think it was, when you said you started your business. And then, you started to do a bit of coaching. How did you, sort of, evolve from coaching to all the different things you do now? Can you just sort of give us a sense of how a business grows and develops?

Dorie Clark: [00:10:58] Yeah, absolutely. So my most recent book, in fact, is called Entrepreneurial You. And basically, what it's about is how to create multiple income streams in your business. And one of the key points that I make is that while it is a great thing to have multiple income streams in your business, you definitely don't want to try to create them all at once because if you're trying to do 10 different things at the same time, you're not going to get enough traction, you're not going to have enough focus, it's going to be too distracting.

Dorie Clark: [00:11:28] But what is actually a pretty good idea is to start with, basically, doing one thing, master it, get under—get it under control, get a flow of clients and a flow of revenue. And then, once you have that plate spinning successfully, basically, I would suggest at the rate of one per year, you can add on a new facet of your business, so that you have something that you're focusing on building and adding this new revenue stream.

Dorie Clark: [00:11:58] So, for me, the way that it played out was for several years, I would say from about 2006 to 2009, all I did was the corporate consulting. And that was good. I was able to build up a pretty successful business doing that, but it took a while to figure things out, whether it was just the logistics and the basics of getting the website, and getting the clients come in, and figuring out what I was doing. So, it took a while to do that. But then, I slowly began adding on different activities and different revenue streams. 

Dorie Clark: [00:12:35] So, around 2009-2010, I started doing executive ed teaching. So, I began teaching at universities. And that became a revenue stream, as well as a kind of marketing tool because, of course, you're getting exposure to people that might hire you for subsequent coaching. So, they kind of become self-reinforcing. And then, in 2011, I got a book contract. So, I got a little bit of money as a book advance for that. In 2013, the book came out. So, I started to get speaking requests, paid speaking requests. So, that became another source of income because my first book, Reinventing You, was aimed at individuals rather than companies, I began getting people reaching out to me as we discussed, saying, "Hey, do you do coaching?" And eventually, I said, "Sure , I'll do coaching." And so, that became a revenue stream. So, I began adding on in a kind of slow but methodical fashion.

Andy Molinsky: [00:13:31] Interesting. And today, you continue to build. Are you going to continue to build beyond that? Do you reach a saturation point? What's your thinking around that?

Dorie Clark: [00:13:40] I'm sure that, at some point, you reach a saturation point, but I wouldn't say that I am there. I'm at about 10 different income streams right now. And it might sound like, "Oh, my gosh, there's just—there's so much going on. That would be too much." But honestly, if you were just, again, adding one per year, it's not too much because you can focus on mastering the new thing. And the others kind of go on autopilot. You don't have to put a lot of cognitive effort into cracking the code on them.

Dorie Clark: [00:14:11] So, now, I'm doing things like online courses, which I introduced in my business in—well, in 2014, I did my first online course for a different entity. And then, in 2016, I launched my own online course that I sell independently. That's a piece of it. In 2018, I started doing masterminds, sort of paid yearlong masterminds. In 2016, I also added, for the first time, one-off workshops. Like sort of daylong in-person workshops. That became the new revenue stream. So, there's a variety of different activities that are all complimentary.

Andy Molinsky: [00:14:48] Cool. And so, let's now transition here to this idea of branding because, in a sense, you've given us kind of a view of what your personal brand is, I suppose, although I'd love to hear you articulate that. But I know that personal branding is something—you know, I teach at a university at a business school. I know some of the undergraduates and graduates I meet with are curious about this idea of personal branding. They hear about it. They know they need to have one. Many of them don't know what it is exactly how to build it. It might even feel uncomfortable about building it. I'd love to hear from you. I guess, first of all, how would you articulate yours? And then, let's talk about how someone else might discover theirs.

Dorie Clark: [00:15:34] Yeah, absolutely. So, when it comes to your personal brand, kind of quick and dirty way to think about it is, you know, what is your reputation as other people would articulate it? What do people say about you when you leave the room? That is the question. That's the essence of your brand. And so, it's—you know, everybody has a brand of some kind. And sometimes, it's not necessarily a professional brand. I mean, if it's your friends, they might say, "Oh, well, you know, she's enthusiastic, and she's a loving and supportive friend." You know, I mean, that's a type of brand.

Dorie Clark: [00:16:10] But if we're talking about it in a professional context, it is, what are you known for accomplish? It could be your personality. It could be, you know, "Oh, she's really enthusiastic, and she's really supportive to her co-workers." But ideally, there's also a content basis to it as well. You know, what what is it that you are really good at, or, you know, what is it that you've accomplished that everybody says, "Oh, right. She did that." And so, that's how I think about it.

Dorie Clark: [00:16:40] And so, for me, for all of us, honestly, it's really tricky to articulate your personal brand, largely because we know too much about ourselves. We know all the minutia. And it is really hard to pick, to identify what it is that other people think is most salient about us and, also, what we even would want them to be focusing in on. Answering that question is super hard. So, for a long time, honestly, I didn't really have a good answer.

Dorie Clark: [00:17:13] And so, what I would recommend, especially to people who are a little bit more on the Renaissance person kind of a spectrum. I mean, there's always some people that are specialists, and it's really clear that they're a specialist and, sort of, like a "duh" when it comes to what are they known for. It's like, "Well, I do research into neuroscience and AI. That's what I do." And if that's the case, if it's super clear, fantastic. But for people that are kind of generalists, are into a lot of things, it can be really hard to pick.

Dorie Clark: [00:17:41] And so, what I did, frankly, is I kind of kicked the can down the road a little bit. And the way that I picked was I didn't pick. I let a market pick. And what I mean by that is I started creating content roughly in the realm of what I was interested in, which was marketing and communications. But instead of putting a stake in the ground and specifically saying, "Well, I'm an expert in this particular facet of it," I created content in the beginning was kind of all over the place. I mean, not all over the place, like half of it was about marketing and half is about Dalmatian breeding. But I talked about a lot of aspects of marketing or a lot of aspects of leadership. And I saw what was popular. 

Dorie Clark: [00:18:29] And reinvention, actually, when I wrote about that, that got a huge response. And I began to realize, "Oh, wait. People are really interested in this." And it ultimately led to me writing my first book, Reinventing You. But it's not that I was so prescient about understanding that this was the best topic. It was that I actually was able to test it out. I wrote a bunch of different topics. And that was the one that people seemed to respond to the most. And so, many things, but I'm not a dummy. And so, when people were like really excited about that one, I was like, "You know what? I'll do that one." And so, I focused in on that. And I think, today, now, that's a key part of my brand, is that people would say that I have expertise in reinvention or in personal branding.

Andy Molinsky: [00:19:16] But it's interesting that when you told your story before, and perhaps the way you told your story is influenced by your, sort of, frame of personal branding, but—I'm sorry, of personal reinvention. But, gosh, you really did reinvent yourself many times. And do you think the fact that that came from such an authentic place influenced people's attraction to the idea or do you just think that a lot of people struggle with that or want solutions to that?

Dorie Clark: [00:19:44] I think, certainly, you need to have some standing to speak to it. So, people—it's not that you necessarily have to have literally done everything that you speak about, but people want to understand, "Well, why should I listen to you," or "Why are you a good spokesperson for this?" And so, if there's some connection where people can sort of nod and say, "Oh, right, I get it. Okay," then, it just—you're a much more powerful messenger.

Dorie Clark: [00:20:19] I mean, just to take a random example, you could decide, "Hey, I want to be an advocate for women in science," and that's a great thing. But if you are not a woman, and you've never worked in science, people are probably going to say, "Why?" Well, they go like, "Where did that come from? Why are you the person to tell this story?" But if you have some connection, if you have some story, I mean, even if you're a guy, you could be a very credible messenger for that, but there's gotta be some hook. It could be that you are a guy in sciences, and you have seen firsthand thsee so many talented women enter the field, but then leave too early because they don't get the support that they need, or whatever it is. But people just need an answer to, why are you a believable messenger on this topic?

Andy Molinsky: [00:21:12] Got it. So, it needs to be legitimate in people's eyes, but maybe even in your own eyes. So, I'm a college—I'm not but imagine. I'm a college student. I'm 21 years old. I'm putting together my LinkedIn profile. I'm a little uncomfortable putting that even that up there. I noticed that at the top of the profile near my photo, there's a place for me to write something about myself. I wonder if that's my brand. What advice do you give either on that very specific detail or just more generally for someone who is not an expert in AI and neuroscience, who is not at the top of their profession, or even a recognized expert, as I know you like to talk about it, someone who is really just beginning? How do they think about their brand?

Dorie Clark: [00:22:02] Yeah. So, when it comes to the question of the LinkedIn summary, essentially, the keywords that you're choosing to identify yourself, there's a few different places that you can take it. One is that I actually want to specifically advocate the more extended summary section, the place just a tiny bit further down your profile, underneath your picture where you get the full paragraph to describe yourself, I want to make sure to encourage people to use that text. Sometimes, people don't bother to fill out the summary, presumably because they aren't sure what to say, but it's really a mistake.

Dorie Clark: [00:22:44] I mean, this is literally the one place on the internet where it's not random what comes up. You can say in your own words how you would like to be seen and perceived by other people. Like, what are you interested in? Why are you interested in it? What's your background? Where are you headed? It is a missed opportunity if you do not harness that chance. And so, using that to take a little time to write about your background, and where you want to go, and why is quite powerful.

Dorie Clark: [00:23:16] But, you know, I would say, in a literal sense, if you're a recent grad, you could, for instance, as your headline, say, "Well, I'm a legislative analyst at blah, blah, blah company." I mean, that's pretty clear and obvious. So, that's one way of doing it. Another way that you could take it is to say that you were just a legislative analyst, if that's your job.

Dorie Clark: [00:23:47] What I would caution people against, and I think sometimes career offices encourage people to do this perhaps to their detriment, is to use a lot of adjectives in the description. Like I see things in people's LinkedIn profiles, like especially there are keywords they use at the top, it just make me want to laugh. It's like, "Hi. I'm Andy Molinsky. I'm a visionary leader." I'm like, "Really? Like, says who?" It's just it's kind of weird for people to say that about themselves. That's always one of the keys that I feel like if you use too many adjectives to describe yourself, it kind of looks like you're trying too hard, or it's a little boastful; whereas if you stick to nouns, if you stick to like things you actually have done, legislative research or whatever the thing is, then it's incontrovertible.

Dorie Clark: [00:24:48] And you can use the broader summary description to talk about—tell your story. Well, why did you get into legislative research? Why is that interesting? What are your future hopes? Where are you looking to go in the next five years? Tell your story. But you don't have to engage in this sort of reputational puffery of applying too many grandiose descriptors to your experience, especially if you're fresh out of school because, honestly, rational people don't expect that.

Andy Molinsky: [00:25:18] So, that's the—and I would agree with what you're saying. I can't help but think about, sort of, the version of yourself that you were describing earlier, just graduating from college, trying to figure out what you want to do in the world, majoring in philosophy, and liberal arts, and so on. If the version of you today as a, sort of, reinvention, branding expert spoke to the 18-year-old or 19-year-old version of yourself back then, how do you think that 19-year-old version would react to the idea of what if you told that version of yourself, "Listen, you got to create your personal brand," what do you think the reaction would be?

Dorie Clark: [00:25:54] I think it would probably be relatively positive. I moved into a new condo last summer. And as part of moving in, I became reacquainted with all of these boxes that I had in storage. And so, I was going through all these papers. And one paper, which I thought was especially hysterical to discover because I didn't—I remembered it once I saw it, but I hadn't thought about it that literally in like 20 years. It was not top of mind because it was not something that I had written. It was something that had been written about me.

Dorie Clark: [00:26:33] There was a classmate that I had that had some assignments for a class that she was doing where she had to interview someone and do like a profile of them. And so, she had interviewed me when I was a senior in college. And so, she had given me a copy of it afterwards, which I apparently saved. And it was this like—basically this, sort of, manifesto, it's this, sort of, description of my philosophy when I was a senior in college. And basically, what I was arguing for was that if we really cared about social justice, what we ought to be doing is making as much money as possible, so that we could redirect the flow of capital to supporting the change that we wanted.

Dorie Clark: [00:27:23] And so, I think that, ideologically. I'm still in a relatively similar place. I like disrupting the system, but I've always been a fan of, perhaps, doing it from within. And so, I think that I would appreciate the concept of personal branding. I was very interested when I was in college in marketing, and psychology, and things like that. And I think in many ways, it's an extension of that.

Andy Molinsky: [00:27:56] That's really interesting. But then, you went to Divinity School.

Dorie Clark: [00:28:01] Yes. I'm so interested in that too.

Andy Molinsky: [00:28:05] So, we're winding down here. Really interesting conversation. Last question I have is about misconceptions that you think college students have entering the workplace. I know you work with people mostly who are a little bit more advanced in their careers, but I imagine you probably have enough connection to that phase in life that you could offer some advice. What two, or three, or even one misconception do you think college students have about sort of entering the "real world"?

Dorie Clark: [00:28:38] Well, one of the things that I know that I struggled with when I was right out of college, and I think this is a relatively common phenomenon relates to networking in a sense that just about everybody has had it drilled into their heads that, "Networking is important. We know networking is important. We know we should be doing it." And yet the actual mechanics of it are, often, really mysterious because we are told, on one hand, that what we should be doing is networking with people who are older and more powerful than us, but then, it becomes this question like, "Okay, we get them to agree to do informational interview. We sit down, we ask them thoughtful questions. We write them a thank you note. And then what?"

Dorie Clark: [00:29:27] And the part for me that was really hard was I had no idea how to keep the relationship alive after that initial meeting because I didn't have anything in common with these people. I was meeting with people that were like 40 years older than me, and they had like grand kids or whatever. And I'm like, "how do I even connect with this person? Like, we had a nice meeting that was great, but it was a one-time meeting which they remember you for like a month. And then, that's kind of it." I just didn't know where to take it from there.

Dorie Clark: [00:29:58] And so, what I've come to understand is that, ultimately, it is a little bit of a puzzle because in order for the connection to really be building or successful, you do have to find a way to somehow not make it just you taking their wisdom. It has to be a little bit more of a two-way street where you're offering something in exchange. But the trick is you can't offer them something that is from the same category that they're offering you because you, obviously, have less professional clout than they do. That's the whole point.

Dorie Clark: [00:30:34] And so, what I wish that I had understood is that, essentially, your mission during the course of the time you spend with them, during the course of your informational interview, is to try to ask enough questions about various facets of their life, their hobbies, their sort of day-to-day life, so that you can understand what they are interested in, and especially if there are ways that you can offer value in that realm. And it, often, is a different currency than what they are offering you. So, it could be, for instance, that they have decided to run their first marathon. And if you are a really good runner, you actually are rather valuable to that person as a connection, even though you might not be valuable, I say in air quotes, in terms of professional connections, you have knowledge that they don't. And that makes you interesting to them.

Dorie Clark: [00:31:31] And so, it could be that, It could be—I'm making this up. Maybe they just moved to this community from a different place, but you grew up in that city. So, you know all the good places and resources to recommend to them. Whatever it is, you have to be assiduously looking for ways that you can offer a different kind of value to them, so that they, in some small way, see you as a peer, and it gives you a reason to continue connecting and being in touch moving forward.

Andy Molinsky: [00:32:03] Yeah, very smart. I think that's a really great way, and not only to use those conversations strategically, not instrumentally, although there is an instrumental element to it, but you're also building the seeds of a relationship too, I imagine.

Dorie Clark: [00:32:20] Absolutely. Yeah. The whole goal is to create a connection that can be sustained over time because it's not about what that person can do for you tomorrow. Ideally, it's about starting now, so that five years from now, someone will think of you, and remember you, and say, "Oh, my gosh. I've known this guy for five years. He's awesome. He's wonderful. Of course, you should hire him. I'll vouch for him."

Andy Molinsky: [00:32:45] Right. Wow. Very clever. Thank you. So, great advice. Really interesting story. Where can people go to learn more about you, and your background, and anything that you've done?

Dorie Clark: [00:32:58] Yeah. Thank you so much, Andy. Well, one of the best places where I actually have more than 400 free articles available about various aspects of breaking into professional world, and personal branding, and things like that is my website, which is dorieclark.com, D-O-R-I-E-C-L-A-R-K dot com. And I'll also mention, I do have a free resource, which is called the Standout Self-assessment Workbook. And it helps people really figure out their positioning and their personal brand in the marketplace. And folks can get that for free at dorieclark.com/join, J-O-I-N.

Andy Molinsky: [00:33:29] Great. We'll have—we'll include us in our show notes. And you should definitely check out that stuff. It's a—she's got —Dorie has a—I can vouch for this. She's got—the articles that she writes are very insightful. It's something that you'll go back to time and time again. So, thank you so much, Dorie, for sharing your wisdom.

Dorie Clark: [00:33:48] Thank you so much. Great talking to you, as always, Andy.

Andy Molinsky: [00:33:52] Thank you for listening to From the Dorm Room to the Board Room. If you're interested in learning more about the work that I do in helping people step outside their comfort zones and transition successfully into the professional world, please visit my website, www.andymolinsky. That's A-N-D-Y-M-O-L-I-N-S-K-Y dot com. And also feel free to email me directly at andy@andymolinsky.com, with any feedback or ideas for guests for future podcasts.

Andy Molinsky: [00:34:23] This podcast is brought to you by Brandeis University's International Business School. By teaching rigorous Business, Finance, and Economics, connecting students to best practices, and immersing them in international experiences, Brandeis International Business School prepares exceptional individuals from around the globe to become principled professionals in companies and public institutions worldwide. Thank you so much for listening.